James Toney vs Joe Calzaghe.

Imperial1 · Dec 30, 2014

Loudon said: ↑

Bailey,

I haven't got the patience to play these games of yours.

I'll highlight the relevant points.

Michael Nunn had beaten Tate, Kalambay, Barkley, Starling and Curry. Don't try and downgrade those wins. They were quality wins and Nunn was an elite southpaw.

Mike had beaten Jackson, McCrory, Curry, Kalambay, Graham, Watson, Collins. They were quality wins against quality opposition.

If Mike and Nunn were in their prime now, they'd be in the P4P top ten for sure.

They were just top class, elite fighters.

The guys who they both beat would also be top fighters today.

Look at a guy like Herol Graham? I feel so bad for him, because in today's era, he definitely would have held a version of the title IMO.

Again, you can spin things to downgrade them, or you can play the 'he ended up losing to him, who went on to lose to him' game, but it's all nonsense.

You can also do the same but in reverse, without allowing for certain circumstances.

Now compare Kessler's attributes to Nunn and Mike.

Then compare his record going into the fight with Joe.

It's a joke.

Apart from the fight being big, because it was a unification fight, beating Kessler was nowhere near as great as beating Nunn and Mike, even if you account for Joe's age etc.

Hopkins is a great fighter, and his longevity is incredible.

But I don't think he was as good as Nunn and Mike.

He's just lasted longer.

Nunn's troubles are well documented.

So IMHO, Toney has had better wins.

Even though those wins were at MW, James fought Barkley just a few years later, while being just a few pounds heavier.

Again, when I highlight the Barkley win, I'm looking at James's condition and how motivated he was, and not specifically at Barkley as an opponent.

I would put that version of James in with any SMW version of Joe.
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:deal

Loudon · Dec 30, 2014

Imperial1 said: ↑

:deal
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He'll surely find a way to discredit everything.

:good

Imperial1 · Dec 30, 2014

Loudon said: ↑

He'll surely find a way to discredit everything.

:good
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He's inasane he keeps saying the same stuff over and over again expecting a different result

Loudon · Dec 30, 2014

Imperial1 said: ↑

He's inasane he keeps saying the same stuff over and over again expecting a different result
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My favourite poster.

It'll be a sad day if he ever leaves here.

Imperial1 · Dec 30, 2014

Loudon said: ↑

My favourite poster.

It'll be a sad day if he ever leaves here.

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I don't think he will ever leave maybe a short ban from time to time but he'd never leave

Loudon · Dec 30, 2014

Imperial1 said: ↑

I don't think he will ever leave maybe a short ban from time to time but he'd never leave
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Hope not.

dellboi94 · Dec 30, 2014

Loudon said: ↑

Bailey,

I haven't got the patience to play these games of yours.

I'll highlight the relevant points.

Michael Nunn had beaten Tate, Kalambay, Barkley, Starling and Curry. Don't try and downgrade those wins. They were quality wins and Nunn was an elite southpaw.

Mike had beaten Jackson, McCrory, Curry, Kalambay, Graham, Watson, Collins. They were quality wins against quality opposition.

If Mike and Nunn were in their prime now, they'd be in the P4P top ten for sure.

They were just top class, elite fighters.

The guys who they both beat would also be top fighters today.

Look at a guy like Herol Graham? I feel so bad for him, because in today's era, he definitely would have held a version of the title IMO.

Again, you can spin things to downgrade them, or you can play the 'he ended up losing to him, who went on to lose to him' game, but it's all nonsense.

You can also do the same but in reverse, without allowing for certain circumstances.

Now compare Kessler's attributes to Nunn and Mike.

Then compare his record going into the fight with Joe.

It's a joke.

Apart from the fight being big, because it was a unification fight, beating Kessler was nowhere near as great as beating Nunn and Mike, even if you account for Joe's age etc.

Hopkins is a great fighter, and his longevity is incredible.

But I don't think he was as good as Nunn and Mike.

He's just lasted longer.

Nunn's troubles are well documented.

So IMHO, Toney has had better wins.

Even though those wins were at MW, James fought Barkley just a few years later, while being just a few pounds heavier.

Again, when I highlight the Barkley win, I'm looking at James's condition and how motivated he was, and not specifically at Barkley as an opponent.

I would put that version of James in with any SMW version of Joe.
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Bailey got served lol

Imperial1 · Dec 30, 2014

Loudon said: ↑

Hope not.
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Trust that as long as there are Calzaghe threads he will always be lurking

Loudon · Dec 30, 2014

dellboi94 said: ↑

Bailey got served lol
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He'll be back.

Loudon · Dec 30, 2014

Imperial1 said: ↑

Trust that as long as there are Calzaghe threads he will always be lurking
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bailey · Dec 30, 2014

Loudon said: ↑

Bailey,
I haven't got the patience to play these games of yours.

Click to expand...

Thats a big post for a lack of patience

I'll highlight the relevant points.

Michael Nunn had beaten Tate, Kalambay, Barkley, Starling and Curry. Don't try and downgrade those wins. They were quality wins and Nunn was an elite southpaw.

Click to expand...

Once again, what were the wins over natural MWs. Tate, who was how good in your opinion as a MW?
Barkley sandwiched between being beaten by a former LW and blasted out by Benn in a round. Werent Starling and Curry former WWs?
So natural MWs that Nunn had beaten and where they were in their careers.
Still its not SMW or LHW, which is where we are supposed to be talking.
Kessler beat natural SMWs and world champs at the weight

Mike had beaten Jackson, McCrory, Curry, Kalambay, Graham, Watson, Collins. They were quality wins against quality opposition.

Click to expand...

There are some good wins in there, but also look at the natural at the weight.
Now who do you think won the 2 fights he had with Toney as both were debateable.
Hopkins had beaten Tarver who was the top LHW with a KO over highly touted Jones, who was considered bigger than any on your list, and if you are happy with the naturally smaller fighters as victims you can add Wright and Pavlik to go with it, and then if we carry on we have his MW resume also. So lets not get carried away and silly, because that debate really wouldnt suit your agenda at all, and I am sparing you here, I mean just look at the weight and where Curry was in his career when they scored those wins atsch, or what weight Starling was normally . Natural MWs Loudon! You have no debate or point with that

If Mike and Nunn were in their prime now, they'd be in the P4P top ten for sure.

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Quite possibly,

The guys who they both beat would also be top fighters today.

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Quite possibly, but we wont know and this is your opinion

Look at a guy like Herol Graham? I feel so bad for him, because in today's era, he definitely would have held a version of the title IMO.

Click to expand...

In todays, I expect he possibly could have done, but in Calzaghes era he was beaten by Brewer in a good fight.
There was talk once of Graham against D Starie and I think that would have been a real good skill match up

Now compare Kessler's attributes to Nunn and Mike.

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Stronger, UNBEATEN, unified champ,

Then compare his record going into the fight with Joe.

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Compared to Nunn, I think it fairs very nicely when we look at natural fighters at the weights, the ease Kessler was winning and against who.

Nunn was a winner of 6 MW title fights
Kessler was a winner of 5 SMW title fights

Nunn had beaten two reigning MW champs (I included Kalambay) which is a win I rate
Kessler had beaten 2 reigning SMW champs
but after I really struggle to put Nunn over Kessler with the overall picture, (just Nunn was known and with hype), of the KO over Beyer, beating 2 time champ Mundine between reigns, undefeated Andrade, former champ Lucas, Siaca, they were all natural MWs and 3 were either reigning or soon to be a champ again

Even though those wins were at MW, James fought Barkley just a few years later, while being just a few pounds heavier.

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Right so we are finally on SMW and once again, look where Barkley was

Again, when I highlight the Barkley win, I'm looking at James's condition and how motivated he was, and not specifically at Barkley as an opponent.

I would put that version of James in with any SMW version of Joe

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I understand what you are trying to say, but the point I keep making is that often a motivated fighter can look good against a worn fighter and once again we know where Barkley was in his career and that was arguably Toneys best SMW win
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bailey · Dec 30, 2014

dellboi94 said: ↑

Bailey got served lol
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You keep making yourself sound a right plonker dellboi .
I understand you have been upset, when I can counter everything and Loudon posting a long post without much substance gives you some hope, but thats all it is, because if you look at Loudons points and where fighters were in their careers and natural weights etc, you see the lack of substance I reffer to.
Wally

bailey · Dec 30, 2014

Imperial1 said: ↑

I don't think he will ever leave maybe a short ban from time to time but he'd never leave
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No one would ban ESBs #1 poster. atsch Imbecile1 atsch

THE BLADE 2 · Dec 30, 2014

bailey said: ↑

You keep making yourself sound a right plonker dellboi .
I understand you have been upset, when I can counter everything and Loudon posting a long post without much substance gives you some hope, but thats all it is, because if you look at Loudons points and where fighters were in their careers and natural weights etc, you see the lack of substance I reffer to.
Wally
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It is easy to downgrade anybody's record. Even for Hagler you can say that his best wins came against a WW and a lightweight.

Nunn and Mc Callum are both HOFs.The fact that you downgrade their record is rather a testomony to your poor boxingknowledge than
anything else .:smoke

dellboi94 · Dec 30, 2014

bailey said: ↑

You keep making yourself sound a right plonker dellboi .
I understand you have been upset, when I can counter everything and Loudon posting a long post without much substance gives you some hope, but thats all it is, because if you look at Loudons points and where fighters were in their careers and natural weights etc, you see the lack of substance I reffer to.
Wally
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Public perception rules the day and the perception is that Calzaghe doesn't belong in the same sentence as James "Lights Out" Toney.

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