James Toney vs Samuel Peter 1

In a one off one time performance against most guys at heavyweight i wouldn't be surprised if Roy did better than Toney. I'd back the pone time heavyweight Jones against heavyweight Toney in a one off. Jones owned Toney, he was absolutely everything Toney couldn't handle and he'd beat him at any weight up to the Ruiz affair. He made a fool of Toney when they fought, he was in a totally different league. He was also infinitely more consistent than Toney. Up until post Ruiz Jones looked awesome virtually every time out which is something Toney could only dream of. Jonezs was also dynamite against a great variety of styles where as James had his stylistic kryptonite.

The best of Jones died that night at heavyweight however and all bets are off after that. As silly as he looked at the weight Toney would have miles more longevity there than Roy due to his great durability, relaxed economic style and non reliance on supernatural gifts and reflexes. Toney had a surprising run at heavyweigt given where he'd come from and his career stage. He was an extremely skilful and durable performer on the good nights.

 

It is well know that Toney was weight drained against Jones. Without a doubt, Jones was more consistent than Toney and the greater fighter between the two. He did less than Toney at the higher weights though. By his own admission, he was not a heavyweight. Your assertion that Roy would do better than Toney at heavyweight is pretty ridiculous considering the number of times he got knocked out.

 

If believing that the version of RJJ who beat Ruiz beats any version of Toney is ridiculous, then add me to JT as holding that ridiculous view.

I think that version of RJJ is a terrible match up for Toney, who would be constantly outboxed at long range and beaten to the punch by the much faster Jones, just as was the case in their actual contest.

I agree the shot version of RJJ who got stopped a few times was not as good as the HW version of Toney, though I don't believe that's in dispute.

 

The point I made is that Jones would do worse at heavyweight than Toney who I believe was more effective at the higher weights. This is due to Jones reduced mobility and glass chin.

You are making a different point, head to head. It is not ridiculous to suggest that Jones would beat Toney at heavyweight. Personally I do not see it happening though.

 

Actually, it's you who started by making a different point.

JT stated "in a one off performance against most guys at HW I wouldn't be surprised if Roy did better than Toney"

By one off, as I'm sure JT will confirm if you deem it necessary, he clearly meant the best HW version of RJJ, i.e. from the Ruiz fight, relative to the best HW version of Toney.

You responded "your assertion that Roy would do better than Toney at HW is pretty ridiculous considering the number of times he got knocked out".

You attributed an assertion to JT that he did not make. JT didn't claim RJJ would have had a better run at HW than Toney's, had he stayed there. Just that the best RJJ beats the best Toney, at HW.

I was merely commenting that I agree with JT that the RJJ from Ruiz should be favoured to beat any version of Toney and agree with you that the versions of RJJ that got KO'd weren't as good as the best HW versions of Toney.

 

JT stated "in a one off performance against most guys at HW I wouldn't be surprised if Roy did better than Toney". So this was not a head to head matchup Roy vs Toney at heavyweight. I disagree that the Jones from the Ruiz would do better than Toney against the likes of Holyfield, Peter or Rahman, even on a single occasion. He may possibly beat Holyfield but he would not stop him like Toney did. Rahman and Peter would likely stop him. Roy had no chin.

You are also putting Jones on a pedestrial because of the Ruiz fight. I thought Ruiz fought a terrible fight in there showing Jones way too much respect. Johnson and Tarver showed him no respect. I think by the Ruiz fight Roy was already past his best.

 

I could see the Ruiz version of RJJ doing better against the field at HW than Toney too, though, of course, there's always the chance he gets caught with a big shot and stopped.

 

Personally I do not see it happening. Tarver and Johnson knocked him out. Jones has no chin. You like to refer to the Ruiz fight, but honestly John fought a terrible fight in there showing Roy way too much respect. You are making Roy out to be something he was not nor never even claimed to be.

 

This is becoming unnecessarily difficult. This is my last attempt to make clear what my views are on this subject:

1. Once again, I'd pick the past prime versions of RJJ that got stopped multiple times, to do worse at HW than Toney (this is third time I've told you that I agree with you in this regard).

2 I think the best RJJ does better at HW than any version of Toney in a one off, peak for peak, fight.

You disagree with point number 2 and that's fine, but please don't pretend point number 1 is the reason why.

 

Item 2 is not clear to me. So you think the Jones (from the Ruiz fight) beats Peter and Rahman? Or are you referring to a younger hypothetical version of Jones?

 

I'd favour RJJ from the Ruiz fight to pot shot his way to boring decision wins over both the past prime version of Rahman (who lost to Ruiz when closer to his prime more than 2 years earlier) that Toney drew with and the version of Peter who twice beat Toney, yes.

Clearly both would have a live punchers chance, particularly Peter.

 

Thanks for the clarification. As you know, I disagree. I think we also have different perspectives on the Jones-Ruiz fight. In my view Jones was already faded by then and John fought a terrible fight. But I know you see it differently.

 

No problem.

I agree that RJJ was past his absolute apex by the Ruiz fight, but it was after that fight that he crashed so spectacularly. I think he was a better, albeit more vulnerable, HW that night than Toney ever was and accept that you disagree with me in that regard.

 

Open your peepers and read properly before quoting me.

You've gone around in this thread telling people they are making excuses for Jones and there you are fobbing off Roy's total domination of him...SURPRISE!

 

Well the difference is Jones was 10x more crowd pleasing and marketable than the fat, jelly roll bellied man boob rocking Toney. Gone were the days when Toney had crack head upper body movement, explosive power, sharp inside combinations, and a junkyard dog mentality.

Toney had no choice but to become much more methodical and careful playing with the big boys. His smaller frame and lack of power meant he had to become a more old school defensive fighter and tended to avoid mixing things up with all these big sluggers. Unfortunately, this also led to him losing such important crucial decisions like the Peter and Rahman fights. Had he won, he might've gotten his shot at the Klitschkos. I really wanted to see that happen because of the built up animosity and clash of styles.