JC Chavez - The best in the last 25 yrs ?

Jones Jr was a greater fighter than Floyd and his best wins are considerably better than Floyd's best wins, so I think the strength of his division is of very marginal significance.

The Chavez-Whitaker fight has very little to do with why I think Whitaker is a substantially greater fighter than Chavez, so I don't see why you are citing that reason.

I believe Whitaker adapted to any style and could work out and beat any opponent, even guys far naturally bigger than him, and did this successfully until he got too old - but even then he performed admirably v Oscar and Tito.

We all know the trouble Chavez had with Meldrick Taylor's speed, and despite his slight deterioration by the time he fought Sweet Pea, the problem was the same.

Whitaker at his absolute best (Ramirez II, Haughen, Nelson) was a better fighter than Chavez at his absolute best, and when Whitaker went up in weight and fought guys far bigger than him (McGirt, De La Hoya, Vasquez) his strength and infighting and sheer skills again place him above Chavez IMO.

In saying that, I'd still put Chavez in the very top tier of the last 25 years.

Tier 1 - Whitaker, Jones Jr, Chavez

Tier 2 - Holyfield, Mayweather, Lewis, Hopkins

Tier 3 - Ricardo Lopez, Pacquiao, Barrera, Morales, De La Hoya, McCallum, Tyson, Toney

Tier 5 - Trinidad, Mosley, Calzaghe, Winky, Tszyu, Marquez

Tier 379 - Audley Harrison

 

I don't think Hopkins is a level above a guy like McCallum. In fact, McCallum clearly holds the better wins and is every bit as skilled a fighter as Hopkins IMO. I think Hopkins was a very skilled fighter at his best, but for whatever reason tends to get universally overrated a bit.

 

Maybe so, those aren't set in stone, I wrote them as I thought of them in a reply. The tier system is very difficult I think. Ricardo Lopez could conceivably be in that second tier too, it's very difficult to accurately compartmentalize fighters like this.

 

I trust you are crafting a post on the actual thread-subject??

 

Trinidad should be in tier 3 he has a quality resume at welterweight and whether he deserved it or not he does have a win over Oscar.

 

Not enough eighties fighters in those tiers.the eighties owned the nineties)and completely destroy this decade) in damn near every division as far as best two fighters and even depth are concerned.

past 25 years seems very arbitrary cutoff point considering it's 2008.

 

You should know by now this is my forte, chiming in with my thoughts on random debates in threads. Often the threads themselves are too overdone to bother responding to them directly. Even still, I gave my thoughts on the subject earlier. Whitaker is my obvious choice.

 

JT, picked up on that with me a couple of nights ago.

 

I've definitely noticed it about you as well. Nothing wrong with it at all IMO, considering the lack of fresh topics these days.

 

I dont see why Chavez is above the Tier 2 guys, or some of Tier 3 for that

 

Would Prime Hopkins have lost to Kalambay and gone to an SD against Graham? Would a 38yo Hopkins lose an 8-4 UD to Tiozzo?

I think Hopkins is a tad better

 

Hopkins has carved much of his success in his later career, it's not fair to compare him with other fighters in that sense, or I could just as easily argue that certain fighters were much better than a 25 year old Hopkins at the same age. Doesn't work that way.

Hopkins never faced the competition McCallum did until his later days really, and the best fighter he fought at MW beat him easily. I think McCallum would've done just as well or better than Hopkins did with some of the opponents he faced. I'm not sure I would take Hopkins to beat a guy like Kalambay at MW to be honest, simply because he never faced anyone near his level outside of Jones, and because stylistically Kalambay could be a bad matchup for Hop.

I don't see how you can be so sure of your beliefs when Hopkins never proved himself at MW like other greats. He just seems to get a free pass on these types of matchups for whatever reason. Sorry, I just don't think Hopkins was that good. Below the likes of Monzon and Hagler certainly IMO.

 

You don't need power to beat a pressure fighter. This is such a narrow-minded view and unfortunately so many partake in it. Whitaker was great at fighting off the backfoot and using the ring to his advantage, fighting behind the jab and using his excellent defensive reflexes to befuddle pressure fighters. He proved he had the ability to fight on the inside with most of them as well when called for. And you have to take into account that Whitaker's footwork and speed were clearly better at LW if you're taking into account how much better Chavez was.

Nonsense.

 

I don't do this, but I'm bored so I'm going to, in a tier format (copying PACFAN's above system) this is how I see the era from '83-'08:

Tier 1: Whitaker, Chavez, Jones, Holyfield,

Tier 2: Hagler (not all career in consideration) Hearns, Hopkins, Mayweather, Lewis, McCallum, Spinks

Tier 3: Trinidad, De La Hoya, Lopez, Tyson, Pacquiao, Barrera, Morales, Toney

I won't go any further.

Basically, as a critique of PACFAN's post, I believe Trinidad is clearly tier 3, McCallum could be argued between 2 and 3 but I give him 2, and of course you missed Hagler, Hearns, and Spinks.