JC Chavez - The best in the last 25 yrs ?

Interestingly McCallum and Hopkins both started boxing very late, with Hopkins first title fight at 27 and McCallum's at 28. McCallum competed until 40, Hopkins 43 and still going. McCallum had 19title fights, Hopkins has had 27 so far. So they are very comparable.

Now you talk down Hopkins early opponents but Hopkins couldn't choose his opponents but maybe the division he fought in gets a little underrated?

Dynamic punchers: Echols, Trinidad
Slick Boxers: Vanderpool, Delahoya, Wright, Tarver
Good all rounders: Joppy,
Tough Pressure Fighters/Brawlers: Glen Johnson, Allen, Eastman
Underrated wins: Keith Holmes, Simon Brown, Joe Lipsey,
Arguable Robberies: Calazage, Taylor (1&2)

Now McCallum may well be favourate all those fighters, but I'd say there's likely to be a bannana skin that will slip him up. On the other hand I see Hopkins beating everyone McCallum faced and a few he lost to

Yes Hopkins lost to Roy Jones, but I'd pick Roy jOnes to beat every single 160lber there ever was so I see that as no bad thing, and Hopkins won 4 rounds

 

They were late bloomers, but McCallum generally started fading towards the latter end, with most of his best work taking place in his prime, whereas most of Hopkins's best work on paper has taken place after what is thought to be his prime. Hopkins is difficult to compare with pretty much anyone in that sense.

That's not a very impressive list at all to be frank. Tito was the best of Hop's conquests at MW, which says enough considering he was a natural WW. The Winky fight took place at a catchweight against a clearly smaller opponent, and one who was just as far past his best as Hopkins, regardless of age, which you're sure to bring up. Outside of those two the names you brought up simply don't cut it aside from a guy like Calzaghe who clearly won.

As for your next point. I couldn't disagree more. You think Hopkins beats the likes of Kalambay, Graham, Collins, Watson, Toney, etc, or fighters at MW the caliber of Curry, Kalule, Jackson, McRory, etc without any thought of a loss, but assume McCallum loses to any of the sorry crop of fighters that you just mentioned on Hopkins's resume? Fat chance.

He won 4 rounds on the cards, which to this day I don't understand. I agree more with the commentators than the actual judges in that fight. Easy win for Roy.

 

What happened before the fight that suggests Wright was past his best?

 

He's been fading for the past few years pretty clearly IMO, ever since he moved up to MW. He's been effective, but more or less middle of the pack as far as MW's go, and this fight taking place at 170 only added to the effect. I think it's pretty clear he's well past his best these days, and should probably be looking to retire rather than just sitting on the sidelines wasting away.

 

Personally I thought he looked sloppy against Quartey despite dominating him. He threw a hell of a lot of punches but he had a really low connect rate and and just didn't have any sharpness to his work.

Despite that though, even if you think he was prime against Hopkins, he pretty much turned up bloated as hell at 170 and was fighting clearly out of his comfort zone.

And for all that might I say, Hopkins still struggled with him, getting outlanded with Winky forcing the fight pretty much the whole way through.

 

Glad to see that a Whitaker die-hard has the intelligence and is willing to admit that Welter benefited Whitaker significantly as far as body strenghth is concerned.

When it comes to both fighters being able to adapt their body and body strenghth to fight at a high level at 147 lbs, this is'nt even opinion, its fact.....both fighters history has proven at 147 lbs that Whitaker carries that weight much more comfortably that Chavez' body does.

......and you're absolutely correct Scientist (props to you my friend) as I've pointed this point out many times in other threads in the past.
At 140 and below, the strenghth gap narrows and likely plain out tilts Chavez' way......which means that it would have been unlikely for Whitaker to have punished Chavez as he did in two or those middle rounds when they fought at Welter.

I thought that at 147 lbs, the strenghth factor favored Whitaker, and so it played a significant role in their fight.

I know you would'nt pick Chavez to beat Whitaker honestly and outright for your taste Scientist, but I'm glad to see a Whitaker fan (unlike Robbi:twisted: ) see the light on issues and factors that contributed to the fight outcome at 147 lbs.

I've only read the first page of this thread, but hope to get back to it tonight to read others opinions.

Nice Posts on that first page Scientist!:thumbsup

 

1. Pernell Whitaker- Won titles in 4 divisions, and was the real champ in 2. Chavez was the real 140 lb. champion, and Norris was the real champ at 154. Still, Whitaker had good wins over Pineda at 140 and more impressively Vasquez at 154. Cleaned out the 135 lb. division. In the early 90's; many pound for pound lists had Chavez, Whitaker, Norris, and Buddy McGirt in the top 5. Whitaker beat McGirt and almost everyone counts his fight with Chavez as a victory. Whitaker also has a victory over former pound for pound contender Azumah Nelson. When you combine those names with Whitaker's not too shabby list of defeated contenders/titlists, you have the best resume of the last 20 years.

2. Julio Cesar Chavez- Was 87-0 before getting his first blemish, which was officially a draw. Winning was his habit, and he made it look inevitable. He was a 3 division champ, and arguably the greatest light welterweight ever.

3. Roy Jones Jr.- Pernell Whitaker was condidered boxing's best from September of 1993, when he drew with Chavez, to 1996 and his split decision win over Rivera. James Toney had been running 2nd to Whitaker for a bit in most of the mythical pound for pound ratings for a while. Especially after Toney defeated Barkley and former light heavyweight champion Charles Williams. Jones defeated Toney with ease, and it seemed as though everyone was waiting for a reason to anoint him boxing's best. Most did so after Whitaker's performance against Rivera. Jones held this distinction for nearly 7 years.

4. Evander Holyfield- First to unify cruiserweight titles, and clean-up division. Only cruiserweight to become undisputed heavyweight champion. Edges out Spinks for establishing self as all time great in 2 divisions.

5. Michael Spinks- Arguably one of the top light heavyweights of all time. Ended Larry Holmes win streak 2 divisions above best weight.

6. Marvin Hagler- Was still improving his win streak including Hamsho, Duran, and Hearns

7. Bernard Hopkins- Set record for middleweight title defenses. Defenses include wins over John David Jackson, Glen Johnson, Keith Holmes, Felix Trinidad, and Oscar de la Hoya. Defeated Antonio Tarver to win light heavyweight title. Lost a disputed decision to Joe Calzaghe at the age of 43.

8. Ricardo Lopez- Retired undefeated and personified near boxing perfection.

9. James Toney- Middleweight champion with wins over Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, and Reggie Johnson. Is argued one of the best ever at 168. Defeated Vassiliy Jirov for cruiserweight title. The fact that he was a top contender at heavyweight speaks volumes about his talent.

10. Tommy Hearns- Some of his biggest wins may have occurred more than 25 years ago, but he still had a few tricks left. Won middle weight and light heavyweight titles after campaigning a large part of his career at welter.

 

I take it people are not counting Duran or Leonard.

Looks like the lighter weight guys like Gomez, Pedroza, Barrera, Nelson are just being neglected... These guys were far better than many being mentioned. Mike Spinks is surely a tier 1 fighter. Most people don't have hagler on there either...

 

I think Hopkins is a top fighter but so was McCallum. As someone else said the 80s is getting massively overlooked on this thread. Other than the HW division Look at the dominant champs...

Spinks > Jones
Hagler = Hopkins
McCallum > Wright
Leonard > Trinidad
Hearns > DLH
Whittaker > Mayweather
Chavez > Moseley
Nelson > Hamed

 

1. Yes Hopkins didnt get the glamour fights until late in his career when he was past prime. The fact he was winning while way past his prime is tesmament to him and elevates him

2. How much have you, many were good 154/160lb champs and remember many may have been champs if Hopkins wasnt cleaning the division out.

3. 'Natural Welterweight', he started at WW, but was solid at 160 and just detroyed Joppy and Vargas and some were rating him P4P no1 before the first bell

4. Winky was fresh off beating Jermaine Taylor and Quartey (who himself got jobbed against 154lb WBC Champ Forrest). Winky was P4P top5, up in weight but Forrest couldnt make 154, he was probably best at 160, but 170lbs catchweight isnt a crazy weight for a MW especially when Winky usually weighs 170+ on fight night in his 154lbs fights.

5. Kalambay - I see Hopkins avoiding Kalambays jabs, scoring the cleaner more meaningful punches and breaking him down on the inside

Graham - very tricky fight, Hopkins would have problems with the speed and slickness, although Hopkins technical style would undo Graham's hand's low flashyness and I see NArd gradually breaking him down, turning up the pace for a late TKO

Collins - wide wide wide UD

Watson - no chance, Watson is an inferior version of Hopkins with less bows to his string.

Toney - I usually do take Toney over Hopkins in FFs but Toney could be outworked, I say its a toss up

Kalule, Curry, Jackson, McRory - don't stand a hope in hell

 

That´s why he was the favourite, right?

 

I didn't miss them, I was just giving a few examples of the standard of each tier, I didn't have time to sit down and consider every single fighter who fought between 1983 and 2008, I'd have been at it all night!!

Marvin Hagler cannot be included in the time-period 1983-2008. He only had a few fights 1983-87, and lost the biggest one. Same with Hearns. You should only include fighters who were at their peak in the time-frame under discussion IMO.

If you did include him, Hearns and Spinks though, I think all three would be tier two, though I can see the argument for having Hagler and/or Spinks in tier one.

I would not change my placings of McCallum or Trinidad though.

 

Can't say i have ever seen who faced the best version of Hearns done before tho.