Jeff or Johnson-best comp as champ?

Jack Johnson's credentials don't particularly impress me. I can certainly give him credit for having a lengthy reign in holding the lineal and colored world titles, but his opposition was pretty weak. He defeated many fighters who were under 6 feet tall, and well below 200 Lbs. He also lost or drew with fighters who were less than impressive. I have a very hard time seeing eye to eye with people who rate him in their top 10.

 

If you want to know where you stand with posters on here look at Janitors post below yours ,you Muppet!

 

I find Johnson a bit idolized, a great and important fighter no doubt but subject to mythical exageration.

I find it odd that the starter of this thread singles out Jeffries' opponents as being smallish when Burns and Ketchell were absolutely diminutive.

Also, why not include the "defense" against Jim Johnson in Paris, a fight he should have lost and would have lost by modern rules. In fact, from this account he doesn't sound all that awe-inspiring...
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archiv...6103FE633A25753C2A9649D946296D6CF&oref=slogin

Lastly, why not include his last defense, the one he lost to Willard?

 

Janitor is a good poster. He doesn't act like the news reads aren't true. What he did here was quote me out of context regarding Rhulin's resume. You sir are allergic to the truth. The nothing special comment was directed at Johnson up to 1905 in cross refrence to the same oppoents that Rhulin fought. It is a correct statement that Rulhin had the better vs common opponets up to 1905. Should I remind your feeble mind who Johnson lost and drew to again?atsch

If you want to take what I said in context and reply, go for it and get ready to put on your clown suit:

 

Seamus is correct.

 

I think i've finally found a subject that Mr. Magoo and i agree on.

 

Knocking or elevating a fighter for defeating small or lighter (or indeed heavy and bigger) fighters is revisionalist nonsense on both sides. Fighting od dodging the best is relevant but should Jeffries have sought Ed Dunkhorst and Fred Russel and Johnson included Bill Tate and Carl Morris because of their size?
Also in my opinion Ruhlin was a better performer than Kaufman and Flynn was a lot better than Munroe whom I consider a con perpertrated on the public.

 

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Jeffries and Johnson were ATG fighters, at the very least, with all bias put aside, any serious heavyweight boxing fan would have to say that they were nothing less than great fighters for their time, I tend to believe that great fighters are great fighters. But, if someone doesn't seem to think so, and wants to say that fighters born after/before a certain date are inherently better, what can I say?

Comparing Johnson and Jeffries makes more sense because they were contemporaries more or less, or at least Johnson is the direct successor to the heavyweight throne after Jeffries.

So my final score card...
Championship fights score card based on Ali v. Frazier I being an A+

Jeffries.
Fitz. B, size factor would normally put it down lower, but I also credit Jeffries for lack of experience.
Sharkey B+. One of the best heavyweight title fights of all time, would be an A if it weren't as close but both get major props from me for conditions, length and gruel. As a fight A, a little close so I say B+
Finnegan D- normally an F, but Jeffries knew what to do with him.
Corbett I, B I believe that this was, despite age, nearly as good a Corbett as Jackson found and better than the one Fitz beat.
Gus Ruhlin B- more or less an average condender that Jeffries slapped around.
Fitz B- More points from me because I believe there was something fishy about them gloves.
Griffin "exhibition" B- Griffin a little past it but still good and Jeffries sent him to the canvas several times in the four round "exhibition"
Corbett II C Corbett was fairly washed up here, one sided.
Monroe C Monroe was taken care of as he should have been.

Johnson
Burns B- extra points from me because I believe Johnson really beat him tremendously. Points subtracted because Burns was a little fellow.
OBrien C- O'Brien was small, a little older for a speedster, Johnson didn't do very well, sure he didn't train, but who's fault was that?
Ross D+ one of the scruffiest challengers in history.
Kaufman C+ an average defense. Somewhere between Ruhlin and Monroe in terms of status. Points for Johnson domination.
Ketchel, C+ one of the best middleweights ever fighting as a lt. heavy. A little worse the than Fitz II. (why Fitz higher? Because he has a track record against heavies)
Jeffries C- Jeffries was ring rusty and out of action. Would have probably lost to Flynn that day.
Flynn C a fairly decent white hope, but whats with the head butts?
Johnson D points off for performance, points off because nobody has ever been able to show me any evidence why this was worthy enough of being
the first all black heavyweight title.
Moran B- more of a name, big right hand, maybe on the same level as Ruhlin.

So Jeffries has six fights that I would consider Good. He has two I would consider fair.
Johnson has two that I would consider good. Five that scratch on fair.

And thats all that can be said on the subject.

 

Agreed. I focus on the following.

1 ) A fighters experience level and if he was in his prime or near prime when the match happened. Too green ( say less than 10 fights ) or too old ( Say 35 years of age or more and in clear decline ) and the significance of the wins and losses mean less.

2 ) What the fighter accomplished when he met so and so. Who did he beat? Who did he lose to?

3 ) The results of the match.

 

There is more that can be said. Jeffries won almost all his title matches via KO. Johnson who fought lower grade guys had some draws which might have been losses, and did not look nearly as good.

To reiterate, I do think Johnson was one of the best fighters around while he was champion, but since he never fought the best, and had iffy results vs tier two guys, it is hard to call him among the greatest ever.

 

Very well, Let's do it this way

Why don't you tell me why Johnson should be rated higher than the 5 listed champions below. Keep in mind, that becoming the first black champion is not a valid reason.

1. Muhammad Ali

2. Joe Louis

3. Lennox Lewis

4. Larry Holmes

5. Rocky Marciano

6. Mike Tyson

 

As a whole Jeffries' competition was generally stronger (especially during his title reign), on the other hand I'd rate Johnson as the better fighter prime-for-prime. :good


To answer the thread then: Jeffries