Jeff or Johnson-best comp as champ?

According to you Johnson lost or as you spin it "they got the better of him"OBrien,J Johnson and Smith,I dont think you can be relied upon to remind anybody of anything!

 

Jack Johnson, undisputed number one ranked king of controversy. It's been a hundred years since the guy won the title and he's still going strong.

 

Jeffries defences were against Sharkey in 1899,Sharkey was 5 8 183 for this fight ,but he was in his prime just coming up to 26,he concedes 6 inches in height and 32 lbs in weight the fight goes the 25 rds distance and is described as very close ,both by the writers and press of the time ,and Jeffries himself..Jeffries next defence iis a joke ,in 1900 he fights Jack Finnegan,who had a record of 5 fights ,w 1 l2 2 no decs,Finnegab weighed 180 ,Jeffries 220 so a 40lbs advantage,a 1 round blow out ,as you would expect.
1900 again this time its Corbett,Corbett is 33 and conceding 30 lbs,he goes 23 rds and is adjudged to be in front when he is stopped.
1901Ruhlin is the challenger ,he matches up quite well to Jefries in size,around 6 1and 200 ,plus he is 29 so not a faded veteran Jeffries makes him quit at the end of the 5th, a respectable win .
1902 Fitz challenges Jeffries Fitz is 1 month short of 40and conceding 47 lbs,he goes out in 8,after punching Jeffries face into a mess.
1903 Corbett again ,this time Corbett is up to 190lbs,1 month short of37,conceding 30 lbs he goes out in 10
1904 Jeffries takes on Munroe,who has has 13 fights ,with 9 wins creditedhe is giving away 33 lbs ,Jeff 219, Munroe 186,he is finished in 2 rds. Jeffries notches as Champion were better names than Johnsons ,I beleive but my contention is that apart from Ruhlin and Sharkey ,they were A well faded veterans or B never wassers,as in Munroe and Finnegan,.
As to the question of Johnson beating a lot of men less than 6 foot and under 200 lbs ,check out the weights Ive given for Jeffs opponents,also their respective ages ,I havent gone into their lengthy periods of retirement,just levelling the playing field a bit in reply to Johnson feasting on all those smaller opponents mentioned.I think he stacks up well against Jeffries .

 

You are focusing on size only here McVey. Fine, let's use your logic and template to cross examine yourself! I formated pargraphs in your above reply to make it eaiser for the other posters to follow this thread.

Jeffries was 215-220 from 1901-1905, while Jack Johnson from 1901-1905 was about the same weight ( 180-185 ) as Shakrey, or Corbett, and bit lighter than Munroe. In fact Johnson was shorter than Corbett, and had less reach than Munroe. And he did not hit has hard as Fitzsimmons, nor was he as durable as Sharkey.

Since Jeffries had a big size and weight advantage over the fighters you mentioned, I wonder if that means you also think he would beat a 180-185 pound Johnson from 1901-1905. Tell me what you think, and be careful not to use double standards! Also take not Johnson lost to men the same size and of lesser quality that Jeffries meet in these same years.

 

Jeffries would have beaten Johnson in1901 to 1903 I think,,Johnson was a late developer,Jerries on the other hand was what I would consider precoscious ,his durabilty and strength was apparent very early . You didnt comment on the fact that Fitz and Corbett were past their best when Jefries fought them I see,Jeffries beat Fitz for the title in1899,why do you think he waited till 1902 ,when Fitz was a month short of 40 before giving him a rematch?Jeffries beat Corbett in 1900 why did he wait till 1903 when Corbett was a month short of 37 before giving him a rematch/ The "defenses against Finnegan and Munroe were worse than Fraziers against Daniels and Stander,pathetic farces.Finnegan had 5 figths ,winning 1 Munroe 13 over who? and 3 of them were defeats. To recap Jeffries beats Johnson up to 1903 after that its very close till 1905 ,when Jeffries retired ,I would say it would have been 60 40 for Johnson, at the time Johnson beat Burns ,I think he would have beaten a prime Jeffries,Johnson didnt hit as hard as Fitz ,I thi nk thats a fair statement.Jeffries didnt hit as hard as Fitz,Ithink thats a fair statement too.Fitz kod Sharkey twice ,kod a prime Corbett quicker than Jeffries put away amid 30s Corbett,How durable was Sharkey?,well Fitz put him away twice,Ruhlin did it too,Just because Jeffries couldnt doesnt make Sharkey super durable ,it may mean ,as Ive said before that Jeffries wore down his opponents with an accumulation of punches,rather than Louis like power. On another thread you say Liston would beat HaroldJohnson ,because of his serious power against a smaller LH,yetJeffries didnt blow out Sharkey , Corbett,or Fitz early,depsite huge weight advantages,which indicates to me you are overating Jeffries power.Do you Think any of them would go the distance with a prime Liston?

 

Very good. But why stop at 1903??? Johnson could not better Hart in 1905. And in 1906, Johnson drew to a no name in Dunning. If you ask me Johnson turn around year was 1907 when he was 185 pounds, which according to you was too light to be a match vs Jeffries.

Fitz was not past his best in either fight. Look at who Fitz beat before and after. You'll see he came back well. Corbett was in peak form and 33 for the first fight. The only match of the four where someone was past his prime was the 2nd Corbett match.

Because he gave Sharkey and Ruhlin re-matches. Jeffries was not afraid to re-match guys who gave him tough fights. Each man deserved a title shot.

Munroe was a grudge match and a decent enough fighter. Finnegan's record is not what you say it is, and besides ever champ can take one easy fight. The matches between Munroe and Finnegan lasted 3 rounds. In other words when a good champ faces weaker competition he should blow them away as Jeffires did, not carry them or have tough times with them as Johnson did. Corbett did get his re-match, and was outclassed.

It depends on when the matches happened, where the matches happened, and how big the ring was. Yes, Sharkey could go the distance with Liston, and so could Corbett. I think Fitz could not, he needs a TKO win. I must go now.

 

Fitz was past his best for the first fight,looking for an easy defence ,he was nearly 37 ,drinking heavily and not in the shape he had been for Corbett 2years earlier,plus he had been inactive,he wa 1 month off 40 when the rematch took place ,no one on this forum ,apart from you would claim he was in his prime.,ditto Corbett,because both of them gave Jeffries hard fight s ,doesnt mean they were in their primes it could be A a reflection of how good they were at their best,as in Moore at 39 and Walcott at 38 against marciano,or B That you have overated jeffries to start with.
If Fitz at 167 ,kos Sharkey twice I think a 212 big hitter like Liston gets the job done too,that seems reasonable to me,I dont think Jeffires had power like Liston ,and thats why he didnt stop Sharkey

 

You don't know what you're talking about. Fitz had two recorded fights in 1897. Fitz kept active with exhibitions and perhaps some un-recorded fights in 1898. He fought Jeffries in 1899. Which is better taking a year off and showing up out of shape some modern heavyweights do today, or staying active with exhibitions and showing up in shape for an important fight? Fitz was in great shape for Jeffries.

Fitz was certainly not out of his prime fighting years in 1899. After Jeffries defeated Fitzsimmons for the title, Fitz came back with five KO wins in a row, two of which were over contenders in Rhulin and Sharkey. A shot fighter does not do this, McVey. Shot fighters loose badly to contenders. Fitz was knocking contenders out

Jeffries defeated Fitzsimmons in 1902 again, but Fitzsimmons was not done from winning major fights. He came back with a vengeance again and killed one of his sparring partners in the ring, and killed another man from a prize fight in Coughlin. Then in November 1903, a 40 year old Fitzsimmons won the light heavyweight title from a very good George Gardiner. Fitz floored Gardiner 4 times, and took the title. This is very impressive. Gardiner was a good fighter. Gardiner holds wins over Walcott, Maher, Hart, Root, Craig, and others. In fact he holds KO's wins over Hart, Root, and Maher! So you see Fitz was far from washed up after either Jeffries fight. Nice try.

I believe Fitz was out of his prime around sometime in 1905. Fitz, Archie Moore, and George Foreman are three heavyweights who fought well beyond their 36th birthdays and won significant fights from 40 years of age or more.

As for Liston, I think he likely defeats Fitzsimmons. I'd give Fitz a punchers chance, and an intangibles chance if Liston showed up on a night where he had some dog / lack of focus in him. Jeffries not knocking Shakrey out while green or later on with an injury means little. Jeffries floored Sharkey in both fights, and likely ruined him in the 2nd fight. You should be aware that fighter like Whitehurst, Marshal, and Machen made the distance with Liston.