Jeff or Johnson-best comp as champ?

I think if you look at it plainly, Jeffries resume, while champion, is the better list of men, Corbett and Fitz obviously stand out because they were former champions. I think Fitz was better than Jeffries and Johnson, but that is another thread.

I will state that neither Corbett nor Fitz were prime. Corbett hadn't won a major fight in some time when he fought Jeff the first time. His best wins, IMO, were some 7 or 8 years in the past. Let's be honest, Corbett made his bones against Jackson and Sullivan and those bouts were in 1891 and 92 respectively. He may have been in good shape, but he was no where near prime.

Fitz is a little different in that he was a special, special fighter--one of the best we have ever had. He was still winning good bouts when he fought Jeffries, but he too was hardly prime. Not to mention that the last thing to go on a fighter is his punch--so Ruby Robert could still be evry effective even late in his career, because he had one of the best punches in the history of the game. Add to this the fact that he was fighting Jeffries with an age handicap of 12 years and 40 and 47 pounds resepctively and it puts somewhat of a handicap on the match. Jeffries beat him, but weights being even or even 15 or 20 pounds difference--you have a different fight.

Johnson championship reign was not spectacular, yet not as terrible as some make it out to be. I agree with Janitor who has stated on many occasions that Johnson's best work was done prior to winning the title.
It is hard to compare the two men as champions. Jeffries career, outside of being a champion, was very brief. In fact his entire career was fairly sparse in comparison to Johnson's entire run. The two men came up differently, were handled differently and faced an entirely different set of circumstances.

Jeffries was 24 when he won the title. Johnson was 30. By the time Jeff was thrirty he was retiring. Johnson's title run came at a time when he was beginning to cross over onto the downside of his athletic career. How would Jeffries reign have looked had he begun it at age thirty? How would Johnson's have looked had he begun at 24?

Jeffries run as champ lasted for 4.5 years and consisted of 10 fights against 6 opponents. His results are impressive, winning all except one of those fights by KO. However, his competition was only decent, IMO. I have discussed Corbett and Fitz above--and that is my opinion--and those two fellows must be regarded as the best comp of the bunch. Sharkey, well, IMO, he has always been a bit over-rated, or more pointedly, Jeffries win(s) over him a bit over-stated. Jeffries largest challenger was Gus Ruhlin who weighed 200 pounds. His smallest challenger was 167 pound Bob Fitzsimmons.

In his prime years, from age 24 until he won the title Johnson had 59 fights, with a record of 37 wins, 20 KOs, 2 losses, 16 ND and 7 draws. He fought the likes of Jeannette, Langford, McVey, Denver Ed, Frank Childs, George Gardner, Hank Griffin, Sandy Ferguson, Marvin Hart, and Tommy Burns.

To compare them as fighters by their records is impossible. Jeffries body of work was just nothing like Johnson's. Jeffries has the names perhaps, but how was he truly challenged. I think Johnson's resume speaks to a more complete fighter, one who saw more, did more and learned more--and was better because of it.

 

Jeffries clearly had the superior title reign. Fitz, Corbett, and Sharkey are and were better than anyone Johnson fought as champion. Johnson may have had an overall better body of work pre-championship, but that was not the question posed. Johnson fought guys like Burns, Ketchel, a completely shot Jeff, Jim Flynn, Frank Moran, Jim Johnson. Decent, but ho hum when you really think about it for a guy who reigned for 7 years. I don't think any of those guys could have beaten even a diminished Fitz, Corbett, or Sharkey. Johnson cleaned out the division before he became champ, and wouldn't rematch the guys who were really the best contenders at the time, like Sam Langford or Jeanette, etc.

 

For the record Gardner, good fighter as he was, did not Ko Hart, the latter quit with a damaged(broken?) hand and Maher was only fighting for beer money.
I also think that it is clear that Jeff fought the best c'ship opposition without argument, I actually think that Ruhlin was better than any of Johnsons title defence opponents. Also for what its worth I rate Johnson the better fighter of the two.

 

Someone with more time and erudition than I should start this thread, because I believe it to be true.

By the by, I believe my taunting of writer playing the race card was deleted. Ain't love grand?

 

I agree with alot of what KSMITH says, however i will still say that Sharkey was better then anyione Jack fought as champ

 

Corbett put on a great effort in the first fight. The people familiar with him called it his greatest effort. Hence he was not past his best. One think KSmith should consider is Jeffries lack of experience going into his early title matches. Corbett, and Fitz had it. Jeffries did not. Experience matters too. Jeffreis should get credit for being moved quickly and winning the title with 11 or so recorded fights, then giving title shots to worthy contenders. As Jeffries gained experience, he became a better fighter. By 1903-1904, Jeffries was close to being a finished product. It is possible that the world never saw the best version of Jeffries because he retired too soon.

With Jeffries he doesn’t need any excuses from the start of his career to initial retirement. Johnson’s career is loaded with excuses. Without a doubt Jeffries and a better title reign, and it is very likely based on results that Jeffries was better than Johnson while the two were active from 1896-1905.

 

How is being 33 years old, being in great shape to go 20+ rounds at a rapid pace, and putting on a good effort " past his prime "? Let's be reasonable here. Papers say Corbett looked great leading up to the match, and performed great ( better than he did vs Sharkey or McCoy ) during the match.

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This is because unlike Johnson, Jeffries beat top fighters on the way up without losing. Wins over past thier prime legands such as Goddard, and Jackson, and wins over current contenders such as Armstrong, Griffin, Sharkey, and Evertt proved Jeffries was ready. If there was a better man for Fitzsimmons to fight in 1899, post the name here.

Are you sure? Jeffries had about 120 exhibitions matches, which could equate to some of those 3 or 6 round colored title matches. He Ko’d about dozen local fighters when he went on tour in Europe. Getting back to the exhibition matches, are you aware Jeffries Ko’d a big Ed Dunkorst in 2, Bounced the same Hank Griffin around like a basketball in 4 one sided rounds ( the man Jack Johnson could not tame in three fights! ) , and also Ko’d a 200+ pound Joe Kennedy in 2 in “ sparring sessions “? Jeffries also has reported KO wins over Childs, and Martin. Did the reported KO wins happen? Unknown, but htey were reported long before Jeffries won the title. My point here is Jeffires was in the ring a lot. As for why he retired, he beat two eras worth of fighters ( 1890's and 1900's ), had money and got married. There were offers to fight Squires, and Lang, after JEffries retired in 1905 but they did not interest Jeffries enough, and the fights would have been mis matches. Jeffries became a ring offical instead.

As I have pointed out, Johnson was not worthy until the tail end of Jeffries career. Johnson was worhty from late 1903 to the Hart loss in 1905. Please show me news read that says a promoter has put up $30,000 -$50,000 for Jeffries vs Johnson match from 1903-1905. I posted several such sources when I said Johnson flat out ducked offers to fight McVey, Jeanette, and Langford. If you’d like to read them, I can repost them for you. I have never seen any such news read on a Jeffries vs Johnson fight from 1903-1905. Have you? Time to show your cards Ksmith. Local papers drumming up fights happen all the time in boxing. The ducking occurs when the money is up, and one guy balks.

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I think Corbett's prime extended well beyond 1892. And like I said, the first Jeffries fight was Corbett best effort. So say his own people.:deal Who are you to say different?

You said, " How did he get a shot at the title at such a young stage in his career? " My answer was

>>> This is because unlike Johnson, Jeffries beat top fighters on the way up without losing. Wins over past their prime legends such as Goddard, and Jackson, and wins over current contenders such as Armstrong, Griffin, Sharkey, and Everett proved Jeffries was ready. If there was a better man for Fitzsimmons to fight in 1899, post the name here.

Yes. Some of them can be seen at the Cyber boxing zone. Others were listed by me.

Here are some of those exhibitions.

[FONT=&quot]1899: -Jeffries knocked out 6 other opponents in England[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot] -Jeffries took [/FONT][FONT=&quot]on[/FONT][FONT=&quot] all-comers in Scotland[/FONT][FONT=&quot] -Jeffries took on all-comers in Ireland[/FONT]

Who is unknown for now. When and Where is in Europe in 1899 when Jeffries went on tour there. Cyber boxing zone makes mention of this. See the above quotes.

I was listing some stuff when you said the world did not see enough of Jeffries.

And Johnson was about 180-185 pounds back then. Do you think your amigo had a chance from 1899-1905?

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The money died down, and yes boxing talent was at al lull. Show me when the money was up KSmith, then we can talk about ducking. Money talks. I see none of it. Yet when the money was there, Jeffries did return. Of coruse Jeffries once offered Johnson a fight in a bar for no money. Johnson balked.

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He returned to fight him, with some still seeing Jeffries as the lineal champ. If your one of those historians who uses a quote as an ultimatum, I think it would be unwise in this case. What fighters say, and what they do when the money is up can be different things.

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Wow, was McVey then? 8-3 and 20years of age? You tell me. No way McVey earned a title shot by 1903 vs Jeffries. Where is a news clip on a promoter putting up that type of money for a Johnson fight Mr. Author? I will hound you on this point until you either 1 ) Produce one, or 2 ) Admit I am correct as there is none. As for the NY Times, I have been using them as of late. I also use the Oakland Tribune, and The Brooklyn Union.[/FONT]

 

Please make it.

You would have my undivided interest.

 

Jeffries did not fight anyone in ireland. he had one ex. scheduled in Cork but cancelled.

 

Thanks Matt. Who did Jeffries fight in Scotland and England? I don’t have access to these news papers.

 

Oakland Tribune, 1903, 18/8
johnson pointed out that Jeff fought Armstrong, Griffin, Jackson.
Paper quoted the managers of the Yosemite Club as offering JJJ a fight with McVey that November.
"When there are no white men left to fight I will quit the business. It may be that I can defeat all the colored heavyweights in sight with ease but i am not going to try. I am determined to not take a chance on losing the championship to a negro."
No comment necessary except to say that they were different times and hard to comprehend to-day.