Jeffries offers to fight Johnson in a cellar

Praise from Caesar.I am honoured. In a curmudgeonly way of course.

Just think where Jeffries would rate if he had faced Johnson in 1904/5 and won ? Quite a possibility too,imo.

 

If you read the Johnson vs. Langford news reads that Seyna posted, they clearly state Johnson would not have a chance to beat Jeffries in 1906.

Had they fought in 1905 ( Say Johnson defeated Hart ) I don't think Jeffries would be rated much higher then he was when he was alive which was normally in the #1-#3 spots.

Johnson as champion never fought a great heavyweight in their prime or near prime unless think Willard was one of them, nor does he look impressive on film or news reads. His ranking is largely boosted by Fleisher, and the work of liberal activists who often don't know much about boxing.

 

I think i will disagree with you there.

A loss by Johnson would definitely have dropped his legacy massively, but he was still the next dominant champion. Although i do think he would have been far more active and we would have seen the Langford, mcvey and Jeanette rematches. If Johnson continued his dominance, it would have hurt their legacies, but definitely raised Jeffries. If one of those had won the title and become the dominant force, I expect Jeffries would face the same arguments about running from Langford, McVey and Jeanette as he does now.

 

Its Senya.

If Jeffries thought Johnson had no chance against him, he would not have retired.
Jeffries died in 1953, I think you will find very few who put him above Johnson,Dempsey and Louis at that time.

 

I agree ,things would have changed drastically ,Johnson would have likely rematched at least Langford,and the winner would be elevated.Should Jeffries have accepted Johnson's challenge, and beaten him he would be in the top 5 today imo, instead of out side the top 10 on most lists.

 

I was refereeing to the news article posted in 1906 where Johnson defeated Langford, but the press said he would have no chance vs. Jeffries. Must I re-posted and blow it up in your face

In the 50's there Was a survey of boxing historians called the McCallum survey of 12 people. Jeffries came out #1 in the survey as the best heavyweight, ahead of Johnson, Dempsey, and Louis. So right there I think we have more than a " Few " men. I have plenty of historians lists. Jeffries typically rates 1, 2 or 3, on most of them pre 1960.

And of course both Jack Johnson, and Jack Dempsey felt Jeffries was the best. So did Corbett, Fitz, Langford, Burns, et al.

 

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...IBAJ&pg=6557,426264&dq=denver+ed+martin&hl=en

A bit of ammo here for Johnson's detractors. What is thought of Denver Ed Martins claims that he won 19 of the 20 rounds against Johnson?

 

And here is another interesting article, which throws up an interesting point. Jeffries may have drawn the colour line, but he fought Hank Griffin after he won the title. It is listed as an exhibition, and it certainly wasnt a title match as such, but if the finnegan fight was considered a real fight, is it possible that Jeffries v Griffin should have been also?

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...BAJ&pg=1883,4704468&dq=denver+ed+martin&hl=en

 

Everyone has the right to make their own list of Heavyweight champions according to their conscience.

To infer that Johnson's rating is boosted by liberal activists who know little about boxing is the manic desire of the foremost Johnson hater on this Forum, namely phobic YOU.
Among those who rated Johnson in the top 3 bracket are.

Ted Kid Lewis
Jack Blackburn
Ray Arcel
Grantland Rice
Dan Daniel
John Lardner
Nat Fleischer
Nat Loubet
Jersey Jones
Charley Rose
Eddie Futch
Gilbert Odd
Denzil Batchelor
Harry Mullan
Henry Cooper
Randy Roberts
Jim Corbett
Tom Sharkey
Finis Farr
Charley Goldman
George Parnassus
Hugh D McIntosh
Eugene Corri
Damon Runyon
Heywood Broun
Tex Rickard
Wiliam Detloff
Lester Bromberg
Harry Carpenter
Reg Gutteridge
Graham Houston
Just a few.
Oh, and here is what McCallum said about him.


"McCallum also wrote (1975 p 17) that catfooted Johnson came about as close to being an unbeatable fighter as ever lived." [ Cyberzone ,courtesy of Tracy Callis].

Kevin Smith, whom you say is the foremost authority on black fighters.Said this.

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How many liberal activists on that list do you think?

You pathetic f****d up hater. atsch

 

I’m new to this forum so im sure I’m making a faux pas by reanimating an otherwise 6 year dead thread. That said, part of the reason I joined this forum was because of this post.

You see, I spent months trying to determine what Saloon this supposedly occurred at and had to read countless book excerpts for clues and archived articles before finally discovering it. I thought for sure I was the only one on Earth who now had that knowledge and wanted to find a place to share it, but when I did a keyword search and discovered that 6 years ago someone was posting this knowledge as if it were just common knowledge in this forum, I thought “Damn, this is one well informed forum!!” And I joined shortly there after.

Anyways, yes the Saloon was called Corbett’s and it was owned by Harry Corbett, but was often referred to as Jim Corbett’s bar. It was frequented by boxers of the day, but was also a gambling house that was often raided by police. This may be the only surviving picture of it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/RBI/comments/7t2egp/boxing_history_mystery/

Sorry, I’m not sure how to post pics on this forum yet, this is only my second post! Anyway, Corbett’s can be seen midway down the block on the left. There are even some people milling around out front. The picture is actually of impressive quality for that time. This photo was taken from the corner of Ellis and Powell. If you stood there today and looked in that direction, you’d see a parking garage. And depending the time of night you’d see a lot of homeless people, drug users and possibly some prostitutes. This is located at the upper edge of the Tenderloin.

Regarding the various takes and explanations I’ve heard in this thread I have some responses:

Was Johnson even considered a contender at this time?

Answer: Yes. Sure he had some less than impressive bouts. His fights were often described as quite dull. He seemed to intentionally make them slow and dull sometimes, perhaps as a way to say “F*** You” to the paying audience which was 99% white and jeering him most the time. There is even footage of Johnson punching an opponent but catching him before he falls and standing him back up just to keep the fight going.

But everyone knew he was great and there were plenty of articles at the time saying that Johnson, black or not, was the most qualified opponent for Jeffries.

Was Jeffries scared of Johnson?

-Answer: Almost certainly not. I always find it strange that anyone should assume that men who chose a career of fighting, especially the ones who are great, are scared of the possibility of getting beat up. Jeffries, like most great champs, genuinely believed he was the best in the world.

But he wasn’t dumb either. He knew that Johnson could catch him and win. He wasn’t scared of fighting Johnson, he was scared at the backlash of white America if he put the title on the line and lost. He was right to fear that too. When Burns lost, he became near universally hated by white America. It took decades before anyone looked back and actually acknowledged that he had a pretty impressive career.

Did Jeffries really challenge Johnson to a cellar fight?

Answer: Probably. I’ve heard some say “Yes, he confirmed it himself.” But that’s the point, he’s the only person I’ve heard that was there that confirmed it. And the articles in which he describes the incident were nearly 20 years after the supposed event and were Jeffries way of explaining that he hadn’t dodged Johnson after all (in other words, his way to save face). But there is one telling piece of evidence that it did probably happen...I’ve found no evidence that Johnson ever denied it. And heavens knows Johnson had no fear of sharing his thoughts and opinions.

So was Johnson a coward for not accepting the fight given that Jeffries offered money and the belt if he won?

Answer: Noo!! Ridiculous. First until this thread I never heard that he offered the belt, but even if that’s true it’s ludicrous. Johnson walked into a white bar owned by Harry who was probably as angry and racist as his brother (he was known as loud and obnoxious at times) who was the most racist of all these guys. So if Johnson, after offending Jeffries and all the white people in the bar went into that cellar in a white bar with presumably Jeffries white entourage, in all likelihood he would have been killed. And there was no way that even if he won that these men were going to go to the press the next day and say, “Well Love ‘em or hate ‘em we just gotta confess that Johnson beat ol’ Jeffries in a cellar fight so he deserves the Belt now.”

 

Black folk even back then knew never follow a white man down a cellar , you never know what awaits,...............................

 

The mistake of Jeffries life was not fighting Johnson in 05 or 06. Totally different fight. I am a huge admirer of Johnson but if Marvin Hart went a bruising 20 with him I can only imagine how the Jeffries that brutalized Ruhlin and Monroe might have done. As far as the cellar goes it would not surprise me. Jeffries was a crude brute and a racist when a minority did not act subservient. His arrogance cost him quite a bit.