Jeffries Retired Because He Was Terrified Of Being Defeated

mcvey · Dec 9, 2011

janitor said: ↑

I have to fundamentaly disagree with the premise of this thread.

Jeffries was clearly perceived to be almost unbeatable when he retired. A large part of the problem was that the media didn't think that anybody was a credible opponent for him, including Johnson.

Even if he had looked at Johnson and seen something that others had missed, Johnsons loss to Marvin Hart would have given him a cast iron excuse to fight sombody else. Alternativley he could have just continued drawing the colour line.

Jeffries did not care what the media thought of him.

He did not particularly like boxing or boxing fans.

He saw the title as a means to enrich himself.

He probably didn't particularly care where he ended up in the pantheon of the heavyweight champions.
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I fundamentally disagree with this opinion . I think the main reason
Jeffries did not defend against Johnson was because he was pathologically afraid of losing his title to a man of colour,and he himself stated this in print many times.
"When there are no more white challengers to fight, I shall retire ,I will not take a chance of losing my title to a black man"

janitor · Dec 9, 2011

mcvey said: ↑

I fundamentally disagree with this opinion . I think the main reason
Jeffries did not defend against Johnsonwas because he was pathologically afraid of losing his title to a man of colour,and he himself stated this in print many times.
"When there are no more white challengers to fight, I shall retire ,I will not take a chance of losing my title to a black man"
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Lets say that he was afraid of Johnson.

He had already sidestepped one highly regarded black challenger in Denver Ed Martin, so why not just sidestep another?

Better still, why not just fight Marvin Hart and then say that did not need to fight Johnson because you had beaten his superior?

After that, there would not have been a white challenger capable of making him break a sweat.

mcvey · Dec 9, 2011

janitor said: ↑

Part of the problem with these quotes is that they are all from people who ended up on bad terms with Jeffries, and some time after the event.

With regard to the Armstrong bout, it is prety reliably documented that Jeffries injured his thumb. He also offered to go through with the subsequent fight despite the injury.

Regarless of the veracity of these statments or otherwise, it is highly unlikley that fear of loosing played any role in Jeffries decision to retire.
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When did O Rourke end up on bad terms with Jeffries? I posted a quote that Jeffries was pressured to go on with his fight with O Donnell yet refused, I personally do not blame him ,but have you a quote that contradicts mine?
These quotes are from July 1910, that makes them contemporary does it not?

janitor · Dec 9, 2011

mcvey said: ↑

When did O Rourke end up on bad terms with Jeffries?

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O Rourke managed Tom Sharkey, who got into an ugly trash talking match with Jeffries. It would be a bit like Adam Boot commenting on Wladamir Klitshko in a few years time.

I posted a quote that Jeffries was pressured to go on with his fight with O Donnell yet refused, I personally do not blame him ,but have you a quote that contradicts mine?

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Jeffries himself said:

"I fully expected to go on with O'Donnel, but the orders of the club physician, R. E. Fivey, were positive. I was not in the least apprehensive about myself during the bout"

One of the New York papers said that Jeffries requested to have cocaine injected into his thumb so that he could continue.

These quotes are from July 1910, that makes them contemporary does it not?
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Contemporary to 1910 but not to 1902/03.
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Axe · Dec 9, 2011

Guys.

Jeffries was retired for 6 years before he fought Johnson. That long out of the sport, and no way was he going to be in prime condition.

mcvey · Dec 9, 2011

Axe said: ↑

Guys.

Jeffries was retired for 6 years before he fought Johnson. That long out of the sport, and no way was he going to be in prime condition.
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I think we have grasped that.

mcvey · Dec 9, 2011

janitor said: ↑

O Rourke managed Tom Sharkey, who got into an ugly trash talking match with Jeffries. It would be a bit like Adam Boot commenting on Wladamir Klitshko in a few years time.

Jeffries himself said:

"I fully expected to go on with O'Donnel, but the orders of the club physician, R. E. Fivey, were positive. I was not in the least apprehensive about myself during the bout"

One of the New York papers said that Jeffries requested to have cocaine injected into his thumb so that he could continue.

Contemporary to 1910 but not to 1902/03.
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By 1910 Jeffries, and Sharkey were firm friends.
So, because the quotes are from 7,or 8 years previously they are automatically to be discounted?

You would however ,give complete credence to a book on Jeffries ,written over a century later, is that about the gist of it?

If the quotes were untrue ,why didn't Jeffries refute them in print/sue for libel?
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mcvey · Dec 9, 2011

janitor said: ↑

Lets say that he was afraid of Johnson.

He had already sidestepped one highly regarded black challenger in Denver Ed Martin, so why not just sidestep another?

Better still, why not just fight Marvin Hart and then say that did not need to fight Johnson because you had beaten his superior?

After that, there would not have been a white challenger capable of making him break a sweat.
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I think he was afraid of losing to Johnson, that is vastly different to

being afraid of him physically.
Brady stated, just after Jeffries beat Fitz for the title that Jeffries lacked confidence and had to be reassured that he was Fitz's physical superior, he arranged for Jeffries to engage Fitz in a put up argument about the meaning of a clean break,Jeffries, being 40 lbs heavier than Fitz ,had no difficulty shoving Fitz backwards boosting his confidence and hopefully draining Fitz's. Brady was bosom friends with Jeffries at the time ,so no hidden agenda there.

Jim Corbett, the day AFTER Jeffries lost to Johnson , [contemporary enough?]Stated one of the reasons Jeffries lost was because of a lack of confidence, Had Corbett fallen out with Jeffries too?

Mendoza · Dec 9, 2011

apollack said: ↑

This is all bosh and revisionist history. Nothing Jeff ever did in the ring suggested he was yellow. In fact, I think he underestimated Johnson, as many did, and still do. Coming back after 6 years to fight a guy in his prime in your first fight back? Geez, you are either sorely underestimating a guy or just in it for the payday.

You have to study the era to fully understand the color line in American life. Even Tommy Burns, who was a Canadian, had to go to Australia to break the color line in the heavyweight division in 1908, and it wasn't broken again in the heavyweight division by a white champion until 1937.

Breaking the color line back then would be somewhat analogous to the gay marriage debate that has been going on for the past several decades. It was a very big deal to a lot of powerful folks who simply did not want it to happen. When it came to a white heavyweight champion defending against a black contender, there were a lot of social and political pressures for it not to happen, particularly in a sport like boxing which was constantly under legal fire as it was.
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^^What he said. If Jeffries was afraid of losing, he would have not come back after a 5 year layoff without a warm up fight.

mcvey · Dec 9, 2011

Mendoza said: ↑

^^What he said. If Jeffries was afraid of losing, he would have not come back after a 5 year layoff without a warm up fight.
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I didn't expect you to mount any kind of riposte, you haven't the vocabulary . Brady, Delaney,O Rourke,Corbett ,are all lying , is that about the size of it?

Mendoza · Dec 9, 2011

mcvey said: ↑

I didn't expect you to mount any kind of riposte, you haven't the vocabulary . Brady, Delaney,O Rourke,Corbett ,are all lying , is that about the size of it?
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And I don't expect any reason form a bigoted clown like yourself on this topic.

Look-- Jeffries actually fought the best out there while champion, ( and later returned past his prime to face Johnson ) something Johnson lacked the stones to do as he shameless skirted Jeanette, Langford, and McVey, and got his clock cleaned in a 4 round exhibition match vs. Gunboat Smith. To no one's surprise, Smith never got a title shot. Gee, I wonder why.

If Jeffries was really afraid of losing, he would have never re-matched Corbett or Fitzsimmons, or risked a fight with a prime Sharkey when he had an injured shoulder going into the match.

Jeffries title opponents and courage in the ring was superior to Johnson's.

janitor · Dec 9, 2011

mcvey said: ↑

By 1910 Jeffries, and Sharkey were firm friends.

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They became friends at some point, but they hated each others guts earlier.

So, because the quotes are from 7,or 8 years previously they are automatically to be discounted?

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No, but we have to ask where the similar quotes at the time were.

You would however ,give complete credence to a book on Jeffries ,written over a century later, is that about the gist of it?
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No, to the primary sources cited in it.

It all comes down to the earliest source, closest to where the event took place.

If the quotes were untrue ,why didn't Jeffries refute them in print/sue for libel?
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Easier said than done.

There are so many anecdotes flying around about a fighter like Jeffries. and you can't sue sombody unless you have a lot of money and can aford to loose it.
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janitor · Dec 9, 2011

mcvey said: ↑

I think he was afraid of losing to Johnson, that is vastly different to

being afraid of him physically.

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I absolutely agree that Jeffries was terified about the prospect of loosing his title to a black fighter. He painted us about as clear a picture as we could ask for in his own words.

I submit that he would have declined to fight a black Fitzsimmons or Sharkey, but would have fought a white Denver Ed Martin without hesitation.

What I dispute, is the idea that this forced him into retirment. The cards were all falling in his favour in terms of the matches he didn't want to make. There would not have been a problem for another couple of years.

Brady stated, just after Jeffries beat Fitz for the title that Jeffries lacked confidence and had to be reassured that he was Fitz's physical superior, he arranged for Jeffries to engage Fitz in a put up argument about the meaning of a clean break,Jeffries, being 40 lbs heavier than Fitz ,had no difficulty shoving Fitz backwards boosting his confidence and hopefully draining Fitz's. Brady was bosom friends with Jeffries at the time ,so no hidden agenda there.

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When Jeffries fought Fitz for the title he was being thrown to the wolves on paper. He had a dozen or so profesional fights, had put up a sub par perfomence against Bob Armstrong in his last fight, and was fighting a champion who many people thought to be unbeatable.

Like the stories of George Foremans knees knocking together going into the Frazier fight, there is probably truth in it. It only seems odd in hindight.

Jim Corbett, the day AFTER Jeffries lost to Johnson , [contemporary enough?]Stated one of the reasons Jeffries lost was because of a lack of confidence, Had Corbett fallen out with Jeffries too?
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After such a long layoff his confidence ought to have been shaken. Shame for him that it wasnt far enough shaken.
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mcvey · Dec 9, 2011

Mendoza said: ↑

And I don't expect any reason form a bigoted clown like yourself on this topic.

Look-- Jeffries actually fought the best out there while champion, ( and later returned past his prime to face Johnson ) something Johnson lacked the stones to do as he shameless skirted Jeanette, Langford, and McVey, and got his clock cleaned in a 4 round exhibition match vs. Gunboat Smith. To no one's surprise, Smith never got a title shot. Gee, I wonder why.

If Jeffries was really afraid of losing, he would have never re-matched Corbett or Fitzsimmons, or risked a fight with a prime Sharkey when he had an injured shoulder going into the match.

Jeffries title opponents and courage in the ring was superior to Johnson's.
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How about addressing the point, and answering the question?

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT JEFFRIES, NOT JOHNSON.
P.S. It took Jeffries three years to give both Fitz ,and Corbett rematches ,during which time both were greatly diminished through inactivity, due to extended retirements.

Fitz was nearly 40, Corbett nearly 37, not much danger of defeat here.

Sharkey broke his hand in the second Jeffries fight ,and also sustained three broken ribs , yet despite spotting Jeffries 32lbs, he finished on his feet ,and many thought him worthy of a draw.

mcvey · Dec 9, 2011

janitor said: ↑

I absolutely agree that Jeffries was terified about the prospect of loosing his title to a black fighter. He painted us about as clear a picture as we could ask for in his own words.

I submit that he would have declined to fight a black Fitzsimmons or Sharkey, but would have fought a white Denver Ed Martin without hesitation.

What I dispute, is the idea that this forced him into retirment. The cards were all falling in his favour in terms of the matches he didn't want to make. There would not have been a problem for another couple of years.

When Jeffries fought Fitz for the title he was being thrown to the wolves on paper. He had a dozen or so profesional fights, had put up a sub par perfomence against Bob Armstrong in his last fight, and was fighting a champion who many people thought to be unbeatable.

Like the stories of George Foremans knees knocking together going into the Frazier fight, there is probably truth in it. It only seems odd in hindight.

After such a long layoff his confidence ought to have been shaken. Shame for him that it wasnt far enough shaken.
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Difference is, the stories of Jeffries lacking confidence come from multiple sources and from throughout his career.

He bet on Fitz to beat himself for Christ sakes !

Are all these respected men , men who knew Jeffries better than anyone lying?

The only STORY , not stories ,of Foreman's knees knocking was one he put about himself in a gesture of fake modesty , it's about as believable as his tale of being overawed by Norton's physique, he sure looked scared against Frazier ,and overawed by Norton didn't he?
Total bollocks.

I knew my posting these quotes would be interpreted as bashing the Holy White Champ, but I should have thought some one would endeavoured to produce a primary source to rebut it.

All I've seen is a knee -jerk, hysterical defence of an idol.

Jeffries had three gimmees as champ against Finnegan, Munroe, and Kennedy, count the Griffin affair if you want ,that makes four rubbish defences out of nine .

Three of the others were over men he had previously beaten ,and another was against a man he had previously drawn with when he was a novice.
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