JEFFRIES V CHUVALO?

This content is protected

 

You repeat this every time Jeffries name is mentioned. Apart from Choynski whom he outweighed by67lbs and Sharkey whom he outweighed by about 27lbs which of the best of the division was he thrown in with before becoming champion that had significantly more experience than him?

 

You repeat this every time Jeffries name is mentioned. Apart from Choynski whom he outweighed by67lbs and Sharkey whom he outweighed by about 27lbs which of the best of the division was he thrown in with before becoming champion that had significantly more experience than him?

 

Well, when was the last time Fitz or Choynski actually fought as a middle. Ellis weighed 160 1/2 for Benton in October 1964. I saw Ellis fight several times as a middle. The difference between Ellis and Fitz or Choynski is that they were outstanding, Fitz the champion for years, while Ellis was a completely ordinary middle.

If you want to use terms like puffed up middle, it applies to Ellis just as much as to Fitz.

 

What exactly do these points have to do with whether Chuvalo would beat Jeffries?

Did Chuvalo defend his world title against all the best possible contenders? Well, no, because he wasn't a world champion. Jeff was the best fighter in the world for a while. Chuvalo was arguably not even the best fighter in Canada in his own era. He lost two of three to Cleroux.

If you think Chuvalo is the better man, why exactly? We already had a smashing Jeffries thread which gave everyone ample chance to vent against Jeff's record.

I don't follow the line of argument that Jeff fighting Finnegan and KO'ing him in less than a minute reveals something about how he would do with Chuvalo. Chuvalo certainly fought his share of ham and eggers also.

"Ferguson wasn't as good as Jeffries"

Arguably not many were in the context of their own eras as Jeff held the title for six years and retired as an unbeaten champion.

 

Were Choynski or Fitz anywhere near 191lbs when they fought Jeffries? I saw Patterson as a middleweight,Duran as a light weight, so F*****G what?

 

One thing I think is for certain. If Jeff had never fought Corbett, there would be plenty of criticism of him for not fighting Corbett who was judged the most skilled boxer out there.

 

" Jeff was the best fighter in the world for a while," who were the rest of the top ten? Any Ali's, Foreman's Fraziers,Patterson's ,Quarry's, Ellis's ,Bonavena's there?
Chuvalo was the best fighter in Canada in 63,64,65,66,68,70.when he was top ten ranked and Cleroux was not.
The argument is that 3 of Jeffries 7 defences were gimmees which must be considered when evaluating him.
As a matter of fact I picked Jeffries.I just abhor hyperbole.
The Ferguson response was to Janitor why you've re-hashed it, I can't imagine.

 

How would he be judged the most skilled in1903, when he had been retired for 3 years? That is a very asinine statement and more befitting to Mendoza.

 

Jeffries on paper is a bit of a contradiction.

I mean the people he did fight, were imo, the best people he could fight. But there were all so old and ****.

Shame we don't actually have footage of him against Fitz and Corbett.

 

Patterson and Duran

Patterson outgrew the middleweight division as a teenager.

Duran was a great lightweight before outgrowing the division.

Ellis was losing to the likes of Don Fullmer and George Benton when pushing 25 and still a journeyman middle.

All the weights of Fitz and Choynski prove is that fighters kept their weights down in those days. Ellis obviously tried to put on weight.

Comparing Jeff to Chuvalo, which is the purpose of this thread, Fitz was a unique triple champion who lost decisively only to Jeff over a 15 year span. Ellis was not in that class, but still handled Chuvalo easily.

If the argument is that over the sixty years between these men the general level of boxing ability improved so much that Chuvalo was on par as Jeffries, I have some sympathy for the position,

but I still think that probably Chuvalo would not have done as well as Jeff did if he had fought in Jeff's era.

 

I was referring to 1900, and I thought "never" made that pretty clear.

 

Okay. Fair enough.

Cleroux--did defeat Chuvalo two of three, though, and actually had a more consistent overall record.

"Who were the rest of the top ten"

Off Matt Donnellon's ratings,

Fitz, Corbett, Sharkey, and Ruhlin were top rated contenders in the 1899 to 1902 period. Grffin, Armstrong, and Kennedy were rated in the top ten by Matt at one time or another while Jeff was champion.

"why you've re-hashed it"

Perhaps I shouldn't have gotten into this, but there has been very little discussion of Jeffries versus Chuvalo, which is the topic of the thread, with instead a re-hashing Jeff's record and which defenses shouldn't have been made. One problem with this is that most of these old champions sometimes went years between defenses--Corbett, Fitz, Johnson (to a degree), Willard, and Dempsey. Jeff actually defended every year, and at least up to 1902 against men considered legit contenders.

I have to plead guilty of doing exactly what I find troubling from others on this thread. Not getting down to Chuvalo versus Jeffries--I think Jeff is the faster man, and I think that would prove decisive. There is no particular reason to think Chuvalo would outlast him. Neither seems to me likely to KO the other, but Jeff does impress me as probably the harder puncher. I just think Jeff is a notch above. Off topic, but after watching Joe Baksi on film, I also think he was a bit better than Chuvalo with the same basic strengths.

 

I am not as certain as you are about the versions of these three that Chuvalo fought beating Munroe. Yes, Munroe was not a top contender and Jeff should have been defending against Johnson. But Besmanoff was past it and losing most of the time. Ramos was on the cusp of a long losing streak also. DeJohn was in his last fight, but better than the other two. Monroe didn't beat anyone impressive, only washed out versions of Maher and Sharkey, but he also didn't lose to everyone and anyone like Besmanoff and Ramos did. After losing in his first recorded fight to Griffin, he fought a draw with him in a return, and lost over the rest of his career only to Jeffries and Johnson, the two great heavyweights of the era. He was at best a journeyman, but Munroe might have been at least in the same class as the Ramos and Besmanoff Chuvalo handled.

 

Are you debating Jeffries' right to an atg rating, or whether he could defeat Chuvalo?

I thought the point of this thread was Jeffries versus Chuvalo. Except for the Jones fight, and the rather fluky fight with Quarry, Chuvalo spent his career losing to all the top men he fought and some not so top men.