Jeffries v Marciano 15rds ?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Rainer, Jun 11, 2019.



  1. Seamus

    Seamus Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    39,173
    6,124
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 11, 2005
    I would say that Archie Moore has all the credentials and then some of Bob Fitzsimmons and certainly more than Sharkey.

    Jeffries knocked out some lighheavy/cruiser types, the best of which were very old, one who was basically retired for all intents and purposes. Archie KO'd 120+ dudes all over the spectrum, up to a fit and ready Bob Baker, who was KO'd only by Bob Satterfild and Clarence Henry. I'm giving the nod to Moore... and actually Walcott, too.

    3 inches in height? Was The Rock 5 foot 9? Jeffries did a lot of throwing his weight around against the wharfbrawler Sharkey and got bloodied for his trouble. Marciano was a master of slipperyness and not giving the other guy a handle. Jeffries, at his modest 6 feet (an inch taller than Marciano), would only be inviting slaughter with those tactics. Going by the Ruhlin film, he would catch more leather than the old Union Pacific during a buffalo stampede.

    His marks in high jump and sprinting are good for a junior high school girl. I'm sure that will come in handy.

    You're not very good at guessing, my friend.
     
    KuRuPT, richdanahuff and Bummy Davis like this.
  2. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Member Full Member

    237
    202
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    May 30, 2019
    Archie Moore is better puncher than all Jeffries fought... outside of Fitzsimmons. Walcott is probably comparable to Choynski and Sharkey, though better overall fighter.

    Again, I don't see huge advantage in either way. I doubt either one of them would KO the other one.
     
  3. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Member Full Member

    237
    202
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    May 30, 2019
    I'd also like to know why Sharkey is so disrespected here. He's a swarmer and a good one based on record. We have like 1 minute of him in action with solid footage. He doesn't look worse than some of the other good boxers. Why people keep calling him face first brawler? Why is he called a dwarf? Then Quawi is also a dwarf? Langford?
     
  4. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

    707
    420
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    May 2, 2019
    Good post,I'm not sure Jeffries stops Marciano ,but I think he beats him because he equals or surpasses Rocky in his main assets,strength,endurance, durability ,and stamina.Rocky may have had slightly bigger one punch power, but Jeffries chin was concrete.
     
  5. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

    707
    420
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    May 2, 2019
    To be fair Jeffries was a novice when he fought Ruhlin,but Gus himself had only had about 3 fights more.
     
  6. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

    707
    420
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    May 2, 2019
    Sharkey was a crude brawler without much defense but he was a mini giant with a huge frame compressed into 5'8"of height.
    Comparing physiques , Sharkey actually makes Marciano look rather puny .
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
    Mendoza likes this.
  7. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Member Full Member

    135
    134
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 18, 2019
    Interesting read, fellows.

    It is nice that Jeffries is getting strong support, but I don't agree. Fifty years went by and I think boxing made huge strides.

    Corbett--his record is shocking in some regards. When was the last time he defeated a fighter who would have been considered a heavyweight even in Marciano's era? Well, Sullivan in 1892. His only wins after that were over Mitchell and McCoy, both sometimes listed at 165 but perhaps not being that heavy. And even more mind-boggling. Looking at the heights of his opponents at boxrec, Corbett might never have beaten a fighter who was even six feet tall. Sullivan and Kilrain are listed at less than six feet. Corbett did not defeat Jackson or Jeffries. I couldn't find any other of his opponents listed as at least six foot. Considering Corbett in the same class as Marciano's top names really boils down to circular reasoning. Corbett was great because Jeffries was great and Corbett fought Jeff in 1900 on even terms. The down side is how impressive is it to beat a guy who hasn't beaten a heavyweight in 8 years? And to really struggle doing it?

    Fitz--yes, Fitz only lost to Jeff between 1890 and 1905, and was a triple champion. Certainly spectacularly great in his own day. But most of this time he was fighting at lighter weights, mainly at middle. It is remarkable he could become heavyweight champion, but how many heavyweights did he actually beat. I don't think that many, although there seems to be some padding over the years with tough man amateurs who were big but not skilled enough to take on a top pro boxer. The top heavies boil down to Corbett, Maher, Sharkey, and Ruhlin, plus Choynski. Fitz was probably in the 160's or low 170's. He was beating bigger men, but only Ruhlin seems to have been over 185. There is of course Dunkorst, who was 6' 3.5" and somewhere between 235 and 260 off various sources. But Dunkorst wasn't anything more than a trial horse type in dubious shape, sort of a Johnny Arthur of the 1890's, the big fellow who lost to Cokkell. Fitz was a top p4p puncher but his record of KO'ing really big fellows isn't all that impressive. Moore (Davidson) and Walcott (Shkor) took out equally big guys with one punch and handled a lot more and better big ones.

    The rest of Jeff's name opponents, Sharkey, Ruhlin, old Goddard, Everett, Armstrong, impress me as just an average group of contenders, with no reason to consider them at any higher level than Marciano's second tier guys, Layne, LaStarza, Matthews, Savold, Cokkell, etc., and not in the class of guys like Charles and old Louis. Before sneering at Matthews consider that he was on a 35 bout winning streak and over 50 bout unbeaten streak and at 179 might well have outweighed the Sharkey of the first Jeffries fight who went the full twenty rounds with Jeff.

    So I think Marciano stacked up better against better opposition.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  8. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

    47,805
    4,300
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 29, 2007
    Was Moore a three-division champion like Fitz was? Fitz says he had 300 fights by the way. Moore, as a heavyweight does not have better credentials ntha Sharkey.

    Sounds like Marciano. How old was Moore and Walcott for Marcano Exactly? By the way, these two were the best hitter Rocky faced and both floored him. How is he taking Jeffries punches?

    Jeffries 6'1 1/2 inches tall. Rocky 5' 10 1/2. Three inches. I see you skipped the reach disparity, and the 30-35 pounds weight disparity. Fact is Marciano was lighter than Corbett, shorter than Fitzsimmons, and maybe had 5 pounds on Sharkey. Like you said Light heavy, Rocky was most often below the older cruiserweight starting point of 190 pounds.. Going on the Moore film, Rocky is in trouble, he once missed 19 times clean in a round.

    I don't; follow track, but do girls jump 6 feet high in track these days? Jeffries bigger, falser, stronger, the better athlete. No cotest.

    Why thanks, I think you're missing out on a lot of film and research on the old timers mi amigo.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  9. JC40

    JC40 Boxing fan since 1972 Full Member

    576
    759
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jul 12, 2008
    Marciano had 50 years of modern boxing knowledge in his favour over the incredibly overrated Jeffries who made his name beating up elderly midgets in an era of severe predjudice towards black fighters.Whatever one says about the Rock he never ducked anyone, never drew the colour line and beat fighters who were bigger men than himself. Things you cannot say about Jeffries.

    Marciano by ko or refs stoppage by round ten in a one sided beat down.

    Cheers All.
     
    Rope-a-Dope and richdanahuff like this.
  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

    47,805
    4,300
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 29, 2007
    What a wreck of a post. Few were bigger than Jeffries so of course he didn't fight anyone bigger than himself.If size matters Rocky's going up about 30-35 pounds and 8" in reach.

    Modern boxing knowledge? There were plenty of guys just as skilled or better in Jeffries time. You would be have a point if you said modern filming that runs at the right speed.

    Jeffries fought top black talent. Griffin for example was good. How good? Well he has a win and 2 draws with Jack Johnson in the trilogy.

    Armstrong was a solid guy, Jackson, the British champion who had not lost a fight in 13+ years. And of course Jeffries returned to the ring 6 years out of the game, old and fat to fight Johnson.

    Hope you learned something if you read the post.
     
  11. richdanahuff

    richdanahuff Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,833
    1,488
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Oct 12, 2013
    Mendoza is happy to argue pro Jeffries simply for one fact......there is hardly any decent footage o judge him off of but plenty of hyperbole reporting from his own biased generation of which many went off hearsay and stories.....this makes it easy to argue for him since everything information was so unreliable do to the era's style there are no limits to the claims.

    We all know or should know that the extreme exaggeration of the eras writing is obvious since no man has met the described superman standards the biased old timers described. A study of Jeffries pics shows he was more than likely not 6'2" the conclusion is his actual height is 6' his weight is debatable but no one really cares if he was 210 or 240 he was stout, it is also far more rational to know the fighting pace was extremely slow which allowed for some seriously long and boring fights that lasted for hours the rational mind says they could not have been barn burners in the way we know them today not in a million years.

    The Jeffries superman argument is the most irrational hyperbole in boxing just as Fitz power or Sharkeys skills are no doubt amplified by the same story tellers of the era to the point of absurdity......the only fighter that impresses me at all from that era was Fitz and that was because he fought anyone and everyone at any weight and usually was at a size disadvantage....McVey destroyed Mendoza over and over on the credibility of Jeffries opponents but not a dent in his thick head so whats the point of arguing with him he has an irrational gullibility to hyperbole of the time.
     
  12. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Member Full Member

    237
    202
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    May 30, 2019
    "Elderly midgets" argument can be applied to both fighters and it would be wrong both times. Marciano had to beat Walcott, Charles and Moore because they were the best at the time. He also beat quite a few young contenders too. Jeffries had to beat Corbett and Fitz and he also beat quite a few younger fighters.

    The only fights that weren't necessary were Jackson and Louis fights. They beat them like they were supposed to though, so who cares?

    Also, Jeffries fought opponents with the same size as Marciano. Size doesn't work here.
     
  13. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

    707
    420
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    May 2, 2019
    An interesting and well argued post.
     

Share This Page