Jeffries v Rocky's Challengers?

walcoot and charles would make him look jurassic

 

"Fleischer, Rose, and Odd"

"lived from Jeffries championship years past Marciano's championship years"

"All three felt Jeffries was better. There you have it."

There you have their opinions. I looked up their all-time top tens and they do indeed all rank Jeff ahead of Marciano, but there is also this interesting rating--

Fleischer

Johnson-----#1
Jeffries------#2

Rose

Johnson-----#2
Jeffries------#5

Odd

Johnson-----#3
Jeffries------#6


I certainly get the impression off many of your posts that you rate Jeffries higher than Johnson. I want to ask why I should defer to their opinion on Jeff versus Marciano when you don't defer to their opinion on Johnson versus Jeffries.

Or do you consider Johnson better than Jeffries on their say-so?

If we are to defer to their opinions on fighters fifty years apart, why not on men from the same era, a much easier comparison I would think.

"Tracy Callis"

If Callis considers Sharkey in Marciano's class, what is the evidence?

Off boxrec, Sharkey went 37-9-6, was stopped 4 times (and lucky to not get a 5th in the first Fitz fight). He was dropped more often by the 156 lb. Kid McCoy in the first round of their second fight than Marciano was in his whole career. Rex Layne is a much better comparison to Sharkey in stature as a fighter than Marciano is.

 

"the Jeffries films"

How often was this film shown after its immediate release. It is interesting that a Jeffries-Sharkey vaudeville sparring match from the 1920's exists, but the actual fight doesn't. If Fleischer and Rose saw the original film (likely), it was, though, as teenagers. Odd--who knows?

Marciano fought older than Sharkey, so "prime" is being used to distort history rather than explain it. Marciano was a much better fighter than Sharkey so he maintained his winning edge longer, in fact to the end.

"managers, trainers, and referees"

And how many of them lived into the Marciano era?

 

I honestly think that he might have lost to most or all of them.. Even some of the pre-title guys who Rocky fought like Rex Layne and an aging Louis would give him plenty of problems. Jeffries had poor defense and limited mobility. Guys stood right in front of each other in that era and just tried to out tough one another, often leading to the inevitable which was the bigger man winning. Wouldn't work with men like walcott and Charles feinting, moving, ducking, and throwing combinations. Jeffries was a great champion in his own era and will always be a symbol of strength and courage in my mind. His legacy is certainly something to behold. But the sport moved on drastically by Marciano's era.

 

Hello Ed,

Does Jacobs feel the same way about Joe Gans, or Jimmy Wilde, two outstanding all time pound for pound talents active in the early 1900's? I doubt it, and if he did, he would only need to watch their films to change his mind.

When you have brute strength and athletism combined with speed, you really do not need the classical technique that Jimmy Jacobs was referring to reach the top.

Numerous fighters throughout history show us this.

 

Ed,

The film was show often after its after its immediate release.

$200,000 back then is a lot of movie tickets.


Lots of boxing guys lived from Marciano to Jeffries. I'm not going to look up their birth and death dates for every single one of them, but I will add Dan Morgan, boxing manager saw them both ( 1873-1955 ), so that's 4 including the other three historians I mentioned. Morgan rated Jeffries #1 or #2, I'd have to look it up.

Like I said before all who saw them both to my knowledge felt Jeffries was better. There may be one or two that did not.

The blow link has quite a few names of boxing people on Jeffries:

[url]http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w4x-tc.htm[/url]

PS: I enjoy chatting with you. You're rather objective to information.

 

Good discussion boys, loving all the info and points being brought up. Keep it up!

 

Quick question Mcvey, why would you want Jeffries facing that version of Walcott as opposed to the one from the first Rocky fight?

 

You really are making a fool of yourself. atsch How do you know Rose never saw any more of Jeffries than we did? You don't and your wrong, as there were plenty of films back then that are gone today. Geez...

More on Charley Rose for those who want to learn and where he rated Jeffries:

Charley Rose prided himself on the fact that he was born on the same day the Statue of Liberty was dedicated. Although his boxing career is little known, apparently he had a respectable featherweight record in the early 1900s. He reportedly was the first boxer to enlist for the United States in World War I. He served with the First Division of the American Expeditiary Forces (AEF) for 20 months, and saw action at Verdun, France, capturing several German soldiers.

He was dubbed "Broadway" Charley by Dan Parker because he was credited with being the first person to take boxing's management-promotion out of the saloons to the "big street" at Broadway and 49th, renting an office with Jack Curley.

He was involved with the careers of some 82 boxers--including Max Schmeling, Freddie Welsh, Al Roth, Cocoa Kid, Charley Burley, Johnny Rosner, Jimmy Goodrich, Mike McTigue, Paul Berlenbach, Willie Jackson, Holman Williams, Harry Wills, Fred Fulton, Jack Renault, Carl Morris, Lew Jenkins, Soldier Bartfield, Harry Stone, Bartley Madden, Young Montreal, Sailor Darden, Clem Johnson and Bill Hood.

He died in 1974 in his New York hotel room, from inhalation of smoke of a fire he had accidentally set while smoking a cigar.

Rose's "All-Time Greatest" lists are frequently cited to
this day. (He considered Jim Jeffries the greatest heavyweight of all time, after "Studying strength, ability, punching power, stamina to fight hard all the way by the end of the 25th round.")

 

Lots of questions here.

Rose actually rated Jeffries #1 in 25 round fights. See the above post.

Odd's ratings are a bit of a joke, but he was one who saw Jeffries to Marciano so I included his name.

Ratings are subjective head to head, or you can look at them vs. what was accomplished in the ring, mostly as champion. Since you, asked, I'll go off target and answer. I think Johnson was overrated. He was Ko'd by a super middle ( Choynski ), outboxed by another ( O'Brien )in a 6 round ND according to the primary source and marked up and floored by a thrid in Ketchel. Could you imagine three events like this happened to Ali, Holmes or Louis??!!

Johnson lost a high stakes match to Marvin Hart, lost to Griffin and could not beat him in two other matches ( A fighter Jeffries blew out in 1901 in the same year! ) got whacked by G.B. Smith in his prime in a 4 round Exhibition match, and essentially fought no one in what could be viewed as ranked in the top 4 as champion, save Willard who knocked him out. His resume has its share of draws too. Mix in quitting, fouling, and a chorus of boos for bad performances, plus the bogus allegation of a fix, there you have it. What's great about this? Outside of being the first linear Black Champion ( Peter Jackson was the Brittish Empire Champion before ) . If Johnson was the 4th Black Champion, he would not be viewed as he is today.

Had Johnson fought prime versions of Langford, Jeannette, Mcvey, given GB Smith a title match to avenge the dubious TKO in the exhibition match and won them, then I would think more of him.

But he beat an estimated 20-year-old Langford, at 156 pounds, a very green Joe Jeanette who had losing record ( Started out 0-3 ) in some fights, and a teenaged Sam Mcvey. So he had a huge edge on experience, age, and in the case of Langford weight. Okay, enough on that!

Jeffries career started out facing quality people, and he has no such marks of losing until he was old, inactive and out of shape.

Sharkey had a Joe Frazier and Jack Dempsey swarming style and was in some tough fights. Up until 1900 ( Yank Kenny fight ) , he had 35 wins ( 32 KO's ), and three losses, with just one stoppage defeat.

His resume consists of many hall of fame fighters, and early KO's wins. To count his last seven fights when he was shot really doesn't mean much.

Kid McCoy was rated as an all time pound per pound puncher by Ring Magazine. So was Sharkey by the way. Sharkey was not known for defense, but he got up and won over McCoy via KO.

He did the same thing with Choysnki. In fact, Choynki knocked him out of the ring and Sharkey broke the fall with his head on the arena floor! Then he climbed back in and won. If that doesn't show toughness and character I don't know what does.

Back to the thread, Jeffries v Rocky's challengers. Like I said all of those who saw them both felt Jeffries was the better.

You asked for historians who compare Sharkey to Marciano. I gave you one. I can't speak for Callis, but I can quote him.