Jeffries v Sharkey 2Was Jeffries in Danger of being KOd?

I agree. My comment was in terms of weight. Sharkey, Marciano, and Dempsey at their peak weights were within 6 pounds of each other.

While Sharkey was a known to foul, Demspey had the most vicious kidney attack I've ever seen in the clinches, and Marciano at times would go low.

 

That article appears to be from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle.

 

Marciano was around 3" taller than sharkey and he never showed up for a fight anywhere near 173lb in his prime like sharkey did, dempsey was around 5" taller than sharkey and never showed up in the 170s like sharkey did, frazier was 25lb heavier and 4 inches taller than sharkey. All 3 were more skilled, harder punchers, and more durable than sharkey. I find it hard to believe jeff could ever stop marciano, dempsey or frazier if he couldnt stop tom sharkey in 45 rounds......sharkey wasnt mr. durable either, Ruhlin twice finished him off as did Fitz

 

I think Jeff didnt use his size well at all vs smaller fighters like liston and foreman did.

 

There you go again.

Sharkey wasn't Mr. durable? Ring Magazine once did an article on the all time best chins and Sharkey was on it.

Sharkey could not punch? Ring Magazine once did an article on the best punchers, and Sharkey was on it.

Sharkey was too small. His prime weight was about 5 pounds less than Marciano, and Dempsey. If Sharkey is too light, then the others are also too light.

Yes, a green Jeffries and injured Jeffries could not stop Sharkey in two fights. However, he floored him in both fights, and badly beat him up. Sharkey’s durability, fighting heart, and stamina kept him up. Jeffries not finishing Sharkey, a hall of fame does not mean as much you think. Let’s compare and contrast..

What is Marciano's excuse for not finishing Ted Lowry in two fights? You are aware that Lowry might have been robbed of a decision win and GASP, had Marciano hurt? I have the news read.

What is Dempsey excuse for failing to finish Meehan in a few fights, and losing a decision to him?

What is Frazier's excuse for Failing to finish Bonevenna in two fights, getting floored by Bonevena twice, and barely escaping the first fight with a win?

Sharkey > Bonavenna > Lowry > Meehan

If you objectively think of things, you will change your opinions, just as you did on Liston. However, to change, you have to be willing to accept various facts. I think you can do it.

 

I have an article from the New York Times website which I cannot past but here is the link

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9500E2DC1530E132A25757C0A9679D94689ED7CF

 

Thanks Janitor that seems to clear any doubts up ,for me at least.

 

Sharkey was durable, yes, but certainly not in the same class dempsey, frazier, marciano were. You didnt see these 3 getting flattened by non puncher Gus Ruhlin twice. I have film of Gus Ruhlin vs Denver Ed Martin, he was not very good.

He could punch, yes, but certainly not in the same class as fraziers left hook, dempseys left hook, marcianos suzy Q.

its not just about weight. Sharkey was only 5'8 tall, 3-5 Inches shorter than marciano, dempsey, frazier.

Reports claim Sharkey beat up Jeff pretty good too. All I am saying that if Jeffries could have this much trouble with 5'8 sharkey, unable to put him away in 45 rounds, Its very unlikely that jeff would ever be able to stop marciano, dempsey, frazier.

I like my opinions very much, thank you. I only change them when I have too. Perhaps you should take some of your own advice into consideration when it comes to the klitschko brothers.

 

nice to see you back suzie

 

Thanks for the info, guys.

Here's the testimony of Boxing Illustrated (November 1992 issue):

James J. Jeffries W25 Tom Sharkey. November 3, 1899, Coney Island:
"Heavyweight champion Jeffries, in his first title defense, dislocates his left elbow after flooring Sharkey in the third. Despite taking a pounding from Sharkey, Jeffries batters the challenger's face and right ear into a bloody mess and fractures three of Sharkey's ribs late in the bout to take the decision after one of the most grueling battles in boxing history."

 

I see you had no reply to the my comment

Care to reply to this? ??? I’d like read it.

What makes you think Sharkey wasn't as durable as Dempsey, Marciano, or Frazier? I will brush up on what you need to know here. Dempsey had a 1st round KO loss, was floored by Fripo 2x, at sea and shaken up vs Jack Sharkey, floored by Tunney, floored multiple times vs some guy names Sonnenberg ( Spelling ) and in some trouble vs Brennan.

Frazier was floored by lesser punchers period, and had a short career.

Marciano never faced a puncher in Jeffries, or Fitzsimmons class, nor did he fight out of his prime like Tom Sharkey did. Rocky chin is 100% untested by power hitters, and before you type it, no Joe Louis was shot and struggled to knock out 4 of his last 10 opponents.

While I do think Dempsey, Frazier, and Marciano were better than Sharkey, on the topic of durability, I think Sharkey is better than Frazier, did not go down as much as Dempsey did vs lesser punchers, and fought better punchers than Marciano. So its hard to say.

Maybe so, but Frazier only had one punch.

You don't think Langford was too short, do you? Yes or no? Are you aware Frazier real hight is shorter than listed? Sharkey had better reach than Marciano, and a near even reach with Frazier. These are facts. Sharkey's tale of the tape measurement seem greater than, and thicker measurements than Dempsey, Fraizer, and Marciano in general with the omission of height.

Let's see these three beat Sharkey on their 12th fight, when Sharkey was in his prime and they were green, or injured when Sharkey was also in his prime. Jeffries offered Sharkey a 3rd match. Sharkey refused.

You will never understand that many of these past sub 200-pound champions who lacked power and durability simply have little chance of beating talented and powerful super heavies. If small heavies, blown up light heavies or cruiser beat the Klitshcko’s, then I will change my mind. Too bad Roy Jones, and James Toney chickened out! The Klitschko’s would have wrecked them. Jones had a chance to fight Vitlai and moved out of the heavyweight divison. Toney said 1.5 million wasn't enough when Wlad was the #1 guy, then took an easy fight for less money.

 

Langford was clearly a much more skilled fighter than Tom Sharkey, and Langford proved on his resume he could knockout big skilled superheavyweights. Langford also wasnt a swarmer like Sharkey was.

Notice how all the great heavyweight swarmers throughout history tyson, frazier, marciano dempsey are all at least 5'11.

Tiger Ted Lowry only knew how to fight one way.......Survival. That was his style, to GO THE DISTANCE. He was a Savvy slick Tiger who knew all the tricks of the trade to keep from getting knocked out. Thats how he survived the Rock and many other top punchers of that era.

That one punch was so devastating he didnt need a strong right hand.

Frazier wasnt knocked out twice by a Gus Ruhlin. In fact the only fighter ever to knockout joe frazier was George Foreman. The only Man Joe Frazier fought who was close to fitzimmons size and who hit as hard as fitz, Bob Foster, Frazier demolished him in 2 easy rounds and took some flush punches without blinking in round 1. Fitz knocked out sharkey.

Firpo could punch, Dempsey got up. Sharkey did not get up vs Ruhlin. Dempseys first round Kayo loss was argueably a dive. He knocked that turkey out in 1 round in the rematch. Sharkey was knocked out yet again by Ruhlin.


Dempsey was 17 years old, had the body of a Teenager and was more malnourished than a Ethyopian when he took on suddenberg.


Dempsey was far past his prime when he took on tunney and sharkey. He never went down vs sharkey.

I have the film, Dempsey was nowhere near going down vs Brennan

How could sharkey be better than frazier? the only man ever to knockout frazier was george foreman. Gus Ruhlin twice starched out Tom Sharkey.


Fought better punchers than marciano? wheres your evidence?

You use the fact Louis only knocked out 4 of his last 10 opponents as reason why he couldnt punch anymore, but you forget 5 of those 10 opponents walcott 2x, charles, marciano, bivins were HALL OF FAMERS. The fact Louis was fighting top rated opposition was one reason. When foreman in the 1990s fought ranked opposition, he hardly scored any stoppages. Also Louis may have lacked the reflexes to finish guys off like he once did, but in terms of one punch raw power louis still had it, remenisist of his one punch kayo win over durable savold, knockouts over valentino, valdez and how he managed to mark up marciano and charles faces very badly with his heavy punches.


I think that 215lb Joe Louis hit harder than 165lb Fitzimmons. thats 50 extra pounds of natural brute muscle hitting you. I will give you Jeffries as being a better puncher than anyone marciano faced, But Marcianos chin was certainly tested vs punchers. Archie Moore rated # 4 on Rings top 100 punchers list was the ALL TIME KNOCKOUT king certainly packed a heavy punch in that straight right of his, and IMO moore was a bigger puncher than fitzimmons. Jersey Joe Walcott ranked # 66 on Rings all time punchers list was a hard puncher, he knocked charles out with one boom and put louis on the deck 3 times. On film it appears Walcott could really punch with both hands. Also Rex Layne who Nat Fleicher described as a "big puncher" and ESB's john Garfield described as packing a "big right hand", was 34-1 with 25 knockouts heading into the marciano fight, I have a layne knockout on film he could crack with that right hand. 6'4 Carmine Vingo was young and described by Charlie Goldman and Reg Gutteridge as being a very hard puncher even before the marciano fight. I think Walcott, Moore, Louis, Layne, Vingo is at the very least a decent group of punchers to be tested by and marciano certainly deserves credit for taking punches from those guys.

In fact Marciano Faced 3 guys(ranked # 1, # 4, # 66) on the Rings top 100 All time Punchers list, yet his chin is 100% untested???

 

FYI, Marciano is listed under 5'11". Tyson is listed near 6', but he is more like 5'10". And Langford was a swarmer.

How come Lowry hurt Marciano, and according to the news read I had deserved to win the fight? By your logic, if Lorwy hurts Marciano, he is in trouble vs punchers.

Ali would disagree with you as he also TKo'd Frazier. IMO, Frazier's management didn't match him with punchers often. He did not fight Shavers, Lyle, Norton, R Williams, or Martin.

Yes, after he was past his prime and not in the best of shape.

We were talking durablity here only. Demspey fought Brennan twice, and he had a hard go on one of the matches. My point is Sharkey's druablity was better than Frazier and could be argued with Demspey or Marciano's level.

Jeffries, and Fitzsimmons were better punchers than anyone Marciano faced. Louis was old and lost his power, and it was his last fight when he was shot. That fight does not count for much.

The facts are fine. And Charles, Bivins, and Wlacott were in fact chiny guys who were down plenty.


I think that 215lb Joe Louis hit harder than 165lb Fitzimmons. thats 50 extra pounds of natural brute muscle hitting you. I will give you Jeffries as being a better puncher than anyone marciano faced, But Marcianos chin was certainly tested vs punchers. Archie Moore rated # 4 on Rings top 100 punchers list was the ALL TIME KNOCKOUT king certainly packed a heavy punch in that straight right of his, and IMO moore was a bigger puncher than fitzimmons. Jersey Joe Walcott ranked # 66 on Rings all time punchers list was a hard puncher, he knocked charles out with one boom and put louis on the deck 3 times. On film it appears Walcott could really punch with both hands. Also Rex Layne who Nat Fleicher described as a "big puncher" and ESB's john Garfield described as packing a "big right hand", was 34-1 with 25 knockouts heading into the marciano fight, I have a layne knockout on film he could crack with that right hand. 6'4 Carmine Vingo was young and described by Charlie Goldman and Reg Gutteridge as being a very hard puncher even before the marciano fight. I think Walcott, Moore, Louis, Layne, Vingo is at the very least a decent group of punchers to be tested by and marciano certainly deserves credit for taking punches from those guys.

In fact Marciano Faced 3 guys(ranked # 1, # 4, # 66) on the Rings top 100 All time Punchers list, yet his chin is 100% untested???[/quote]

The Rings punchers list is heavy on pound for pound and popularity, which is why Moore rates as #4. Moore isn't close to being the 4th best heavyweight puncher of all time. I say, not even top 50!!! Walcott rating was gift in my opnion. He had too low KO percentage. By the way Fleisher said Fitz hit harder than Louis, and Vingo's KO percentage is very low, and I can't recall him ever KOing anyone ranked.

 

What talented powerful superheavyweights? Outside of Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, Buster Douglas one night, Wladimir Klitschko......I have not seen any.

Well a feather fisted cruiserweight Chris Bryd already Beat Vitali Klitschko.

James Toney was a past his prime obese 39 year old man, why should a man of his age be critisized for not taking on Wladimir? just because a slowed down 39 year old obese former middleweight already embarrased all the other superheavyweights in the division doesnt mean he should critisized for not taking on Wlad. If 39 year old white bearded obese middleweights are the best the heavyweight diviison has to offer, then maybe those superheavyweights arnt so talented as you think.


Wheres your evidence Roy Jones(who only planned to have one fight at heavyweight) ducked the Klitschko brothers?

Thats your opinion, other opinions disagree

Jones was already 35 years old and aging fast, besides antonion tarver called him out at 175lb and Jones was essentially forced to fight him, and look what happened there.

So Larry holmes gets a pass for accepting more money to take on an easier fight vs marvis frazier, yet because james toney does the same thing for more money you critisize him?

 

New ring rivavlry Q and Z!,Hope you are in shape Suzie ,Mendoza /Z is known for going the distance without quitting