"Jeffries was crude but Johnson could compete today..."

Which small men ? He easily handled Burns , Ketchel and Flynn ...

 

Jeffries made the statement to Tom Lomax, among others.
He also claimed later to have been defeated by "drugged tea"
.I think he was mentally damaged by his defeat,he had been viewed as "unbeatable " for so long, Foreman made similar excuses after "The Rumble".

I think Johnson carried Jeffries a bit,after realising he was not in danger he settled for a protracted punishment of the White's Champion, draw his sting and box to victory.

Prime for prime it would have been a fight of possibly epic proportions, maybe along Frazier/ Ali lines.

Jeffries was certainly not just an unskilled bruiser, but I think his power has been exagerrated over the years.
Workout clips don't really give a true picture imo,as the fighter in question is under no pressure ,he allready knows he is superior to any sparring partner he is working with .Throwing your brother around proves little .
I am prepared to beleive Jeffries was better than the plodder he looks in ACTUAL fights,[imo Ruhlin looks as good in their fight and certainly more mobile], but lets not pretend Jeff was Driscoll or Pep.

In fairness, Johnson also looks less than scintillating in ACTUAL combat, he seems flatfooted and intent on waiting to counter,whereas in training he is agile and adept at slipping and feinting.
Do we go by eyewitness accounts?
The problem with them ,and the superlatives that they use, is their terms of reference are limited to the fighters of their lifetime.
For example Corbett must have been a revelation , Johnson called him a scientific master.
Jeffries too, appeared to be Hercules, epiphets like "Grizzly Bear"",The Iron Man"," Champion Of Champions", may seem like hyperbole today, but physical specimens like Jeffries were very rare in his times.
He was indeed a Hercules in the early 1900's, today he would be smaller than David Haye, or Evander Holyfield, two men who are ,or were, spoken of as, too little to make a dent in today's heavyweight scene.
Jeffries would be about the size of Liston, and most consider him big enough to fight on even terms with the present crop.
Fleischer, who saw Johnson fight ,and was a close colleague of several writers who had watched Jeffries in his pomp, never changed his opinion of both, he rated them very highly, even up to the advent of Ali.
What of the other writers who were contempories of them ?
If they could have seen Louis,Marciano,Liston, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson,Lewis, would they still hold Jack and Jim in awe?

 

BlueApollo, if you can show a citation for that quote earlier than the mid-1940's, you would be doing boxing research a great boon.

Ward cites the quote in 'Unforgivable Blackness', but his footnotes are for a late-1940's issue of sports illustrated.

In Jim Carney's recent Jeffries bio. ('Ultimate Tough Guy') the author states he has not been able to find a citation for this quote earlier than the mid-1940's.

Ken Burns's film on Johnson shows the quote in some sort of printed medium, but anything on the page that might help place the time-context of the printing is blacked out.

Until someone can give an earlier citation for "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best. I couldn't have reached him in a thousand years" -- something better than three-and-a-half decades after the fact -- I'm going to regard this as a very, very poorly attested quotation.

 

I know he did, that's my point. When do people really take fighter's comments seriously. Usually in a loss you say something humbling. Even when you win you did. Most people think a prime Louis beats Marciano.

Marciano fought well, but it was a forgone conclusion either way. I don't know if it was one of his best nights, but you can certainly make the case.

 

My point was that a fighter's statement isn't neccessarily in end all to be all. Most people favor Louis against Marciano H2H. Just because Johnson beat an old Jeffries, shouldn't change the fact that Jeffries never could have won if he said that himself. You can believe it I guess.

 

I think both men could compete in the modern era with a little bit of tweaking of course. Obviously Jack and Jim would be dealing with much bigger opposition than they were accustomed to in thier heyday and they would both have to incorporate some modern techniques to thier respective repertoires. One such technique of course would be the staple of all modern boxing and that is of course the JAB. Not a paw that Jim employed or an occasional thrust that Jack threw but a hard fast jab. Another tweak would be more combination punching as all the holding that was allowed back then wouldn't be today. Less rounds more action. Todays crowds would boo them both out of the arena. One John Ruiz is plenty thank you. Jeffries would also have to work on his defense a little more. Perhaps more head movement. If Fitzimmons could pound on his head all night imagine what Ali, Holmes, Lewis or Holyfield would do to him not to mention Tyson. We're talking big fast modern HW's here, not MW's or LHW's. Johnson doesn't escape critizism either. Those hands would have to come up to parry a long hard jab from a tall big HW not a rush and clinch from a Burns or Ketchel. We're talking legit HW's now. Still I believe that these two men with thier strength and stamina and dedication to conditioning (Which was every bit as effective as "Modern" training methods) could certainly be a force in the modern world of boxing.....With a little "Tweaking" of course.

 

He made the statement as he was boarding the train to take him home.Whether in hind sight he retracted it ,who knows?
I have seen quotes where he says,"if I had been in my prime you would have seen a different fight ,I don't say I would have beaten him ,but it would have been a different fight".I think we can all agree that regardless if Johnson would win prime for prime ,it certainly would not be a walk in the park for him.
Johnson allways insisted Sam McVey was his toughest opponent,maybe he was reluctant to give Jeanette any kudos,anyway,I would guess that most everyone would make Jeffries a heavy favourite over McVey.

 

I'd take Francois Botha over both Jeffries and Johnson in the same night.

 

Guilalah,

I have never seen such a quote in print. Sometimes sports quotes are taken out of context or never happened, but gain a life of their own when a journalist bends the rules.

Jeffries did in fact speak to the press and said he was a fool to think he could have come back, and would have won if the fight was younger.

 

Johnson threw a very hard, fast sharp jab whenever he choose that was completely modern in appearance. See the footage of Ketchel and Willard ...

Let's dispel the Louis could not deal with crouching fighters ... I posted the Godoy rematch. In their first fight Louis was confused by Godoy's style. He retooled and destroyed Godoy month's later as the footage I posted proved. He proved to be extremely effective by hooking and throwing uppercuts ...

 

I'm new to this thread but I'd like to say I agree with the OP 100% :good

 

You could fool Louis once, shame on him but fool Louis 2wce, Shame on you.....Louis did have trouble with crowding fighters but figured out Godoy in the rematch but everyone has there kryptonite