Jerry Quarry v Roland Lastarza,Rex Layne,Don Cockell?

Classic stuff from Mcvey.

 

Layne lost twice to Charles and only beat Charles the second fight on a highly controversial hometown decision with a very bias ref. Most thought Charles was robbed

Besides Layne was erratic in 1953. Walls knocked him out, and 11-2 Willie James easily beat Layne!


No bucceroni Layne and brion is not enough. Had Lastarza beaten Charles Henry and baker that would be worth much more

 

All they could handle???? Charles and especially Louis won wide decisions in all 3 fights...Louis won 9 out of 10 rounds on all three judges cards in rematch!

Brion wasn in his prime when he took on baker your making things up

 

This is all true. However, if anyone else beats Layne that guy is going to get Laynes #1 ranking aren’t they? Charles avenged that loss like you say, but Layne is still the guy to beat if he has that ranking.

Again, you are affording people of the past into knowing the future. Nobody knew Lastarza would later lose fights In 1953. When Brion fought Layne in 1950, Rex was 27-1. It was a split decision. When Rollie fought Layne in 1953 Rex was 40-5 and it was a split decision. Rex was coming off his win over Ezzard Charles.

the #3 and #1 is not enough?

Brion was coming off the hard fight with Charles, was having his sixth fight in 12 months and would later lose to Charley Norkus a guy Cesar had handily beaten previously. So Baker must have finished him off as a relevant guy by then. Brion has been fighting between seven and ten times a year. It takes its toll.

Louis was excellent in the rematch with Brion. The first fight was tough on old Joe but by the rematch Joe was much improved. So it still remains that Brion gave Louis all he could handle one time. Brion still gave Charles all he could handle. Brion still gave Layne all he could handle. And Louis, Charles, Layne were the top men of the period in question. Brion was darn good. Anyone else beating him was darn good.

 

Layne was NOT the number 1 contender when lastarza fought him, that’s a lie. Walcott was the number 1 contender in February of 1953.

Layne was also coming off a wide decision loss in 1952 to 11-2 Willie James! Care to explain that one?



Even in the first fight, Louis still won 8 or 9 of the 10 rounds...scorecards were lopsided


You have no reason to believe Brion was “ruined” in the fight with Charles. Baker beat Brion because he was bigger, more talented, faster, and harder hitting

 

When Layne decisioned Ezzard Charles, Charles was still the outstanding challenger to Walcott. Charles had beat Layne and others to legitimately earn a title shot at the champion and he was even coming off a razor thin verdict against Walcott (who he had beat two times anyway) for the title that some thought could have rewarded Ezzard the championship when Rex fought him. That was August 1952. Layne remained unbeaten until losing to Lastarza. In September 1952, right after Layne beats Charles, Walcott lost the title to Marciano and as an ex champion Walcott had the rematch clause anyway, but Layne or whoever replaced him, was the outstanding challenger out side of that. Lastarza replaced Layne, then Charles beat Layne and Rocky beat Walcott again. This put either Lastarza and Charles as the outstanding logical contender to Marciano on the basis of both of their wins over Rex Layne. And that’s how it was. In 1953, with Walcott retired, Charles and Lastarza were regarded the most logical challengers to the champion.

So Lastarza was the #1 contender out of beating Rex Layne.

 

You speak straight out of your ass

 

What an intelligent answer to the conformation that Lastarza was the #1 contender.

 

Who are you comparing him to?

Let's look at the other contenders who were getting title shots between 1949 and into the 1960's.

Gus Lesnevich--coming off losses in his last two major fights to Freddie Mills and Joey Maxim.
Pat Valentino--okay challenger, but I don't see that he had done more than LaStarza.
Freddie Beshore--not in LaStarza's class.
Nick Barone--ditto
Lee Oma--the best so far, and on a good streak, but most of his recent victories are on guys about the same level as those LaStarza was fighting, and he comes in with lots more losses and 16 KO defeats.
Joe Walcott--comes into this fourth title shot off a loss to Layne.
Joey Maxim--had already lost three one-sided fights with the champion.
Joe Walcott--gets another shot after losing again to Charles.
After Charles, Walcott, and Marciano fight,
Roland LaStarza--comes in off a victory over Layne, who had beaten Charles and Walcott, and with a very disputed loss to Marciano. Whether Rocky was at his best or not, that was a fight which called for a re-match to clear the deck. Frankly, LaStarza was not only rated #1, but looks to me like a fairly outstanding contender compared to most of these guys.
Don C--actually on a winning streak, with wins over LaStarza, Barone, and Beshore on his resume. Yes, not up to Valdes as a contender, but at least in the top half of these contenders.
Moore--really outstanding.
Patterson--His resume going into the Moore fight really doesn't dwarf LaStarza's, but was clearly outstanding anyway.
Hurricane Jackson--top contender
Pete Rademacher--no real credentials at all.
Roy Harris--actually, compared to this group, a way above average contender, undefeated and with worthy victories over Baker and Pastrano.
Brian London--middle of this pack contender coming off a loss.
Ingo Johansson--outstanding.
Tom McNeeley--weak resume.
Liston
Ali
Chuvalo--coming off a loss to the ordinary Corletti.
Cooper--deserved a shot off flooring Ali, but pretty erratic career.
London--gets 2nd shot?
Mildenberger--fair

Discounting the men who actually won the title--Charles, Walcott, Marciano, Patterson, Johansson, Liston, Ali--where does LaStarza's credentials rate against this group? I think only Jackson obviously rates higher. There are guys here coming off losses, never having beaten a rated fighter, from another weight class, etc.

 

Perfect summing up.

 

I’m not questioning if lastarza deserved a shot, I’m questioning if he deserved the number 1 rating in the first place.

Chokelab believes beating Layne controversially , Brion, and going 1-1 with Bucceroni qualified lastarza for the number 1 spot.

I disagree, I believe lastarza should have had to go through better fighters in Henry, Charles, and baker in 1952-53 to earn his number 1 stripes. While Layne was highly rated, Bucceroni and Brion were not at the time of the lastarza fight. Bucceroni had recently moved up to heavy after losing badly to Irish bob and had beaten no one of note. Brion was a borderline top 10 at best, but not top 5. Charles and Henry were rated in the top 5 and baker was well within the top 10. All three were big punchers than Bucceroni Brion and Layne

“Win over Layne”

I thought Layne won clearly. Besides Layne was fading an erratic by 1953. He dropped two wide decisions to James and Matthews in 1952. He got destroyed by Charles in 51 and 53. He got knocked out by walls in 53.


Lastarza split 2-2 with Bucceroni and Jones in 1951-1952...sound like top contender material to you? Jones Record was 14-9; he fought in club circuits. Bucceroni was unrated when Lastarza lost to him.

Clarence Henry defeated baker and satterfield by brutal knockouts in 51-52 and had only lost to Johnson and Moore. What’s worse, losing to Johnson and Moore, or Bucceroni and Jones? So Henry had better wins (baker and satterfield > Layne and Brion). And his losses weren’t as bad


Why wasn’t Charles rated above lastarza in 53? Despite losing a dubious controversial hometown decision with 1 bias judge to Layne in 52 (which Charles twice avenged in brutal fashion)
....he had better wins in 51-52 than lastarza and didn’t have any bad losses to Bucceroni and Jones

“Called for a rematch to cleared the deck”

Sure was! Which is by Jim Amato the mob figure paid a visit to rocky Jones before the rematch and told him not to spoil a lastarza Marciano showdown or else. After Jones beat the **** out of lastarza for two rounds and on his way to another
Easy victory over Roland, Jones suddenly stopped fighting. He was put on the handcuffs according to Jones himself. Is that number 1 contender worthy stuff to you?

Could you imagine Ezzard Charles, or bob baker losing to rocky Jones and then only beating Jones in the rematch after the cuffs were put on?



Does beating Layne, Brion and going 2-2 with Bucceroni and Jones qualify you for the number 1 spot? No way in my opinion

 

Not just jones but also by philly boxing historian Chuck Hasson



"His reputation was built on the first Rocky fight. Although he had a long winning streak at the beginning of his career, there are no tough names on his record. After the first Marciano fight he could have forced the issue by meeting top fighters. He refused fights with Charles, Clarence Henry, Bob Baker etc. Lost and avenged to overstuffed lt.heavy Dan Bucceroni and to lt. heavy Rocky Jones and looked terrible against Jones in the rematch. The Jones win and a victory over the faded Rex Layne gave him the credentials to meet Rocky for the title. A fight I am told Rocky was more intent on giving Roland a beating for all of the talk that he "was afraid" to meet LaStarza again than KOing him early which I believe he could have done easily. Look at LaStarza's record there are no tough names on it except for Marciano.I have the complete film of the Jones rematch and believe me LaStarza looked terrible. Jones was approached at the morning weigh-in by Jimmy White (Amato) a shadowy figure who was a mob contact man and manager and told Rocky "we don't wan't any of that stuff that happened in Akron."Jones had two good rounds then was told to "cool it." LaStarza NEVER fought a danerous opponent except Marciano and thats a fact if you know any of the fighters from his era. I am not saying that LaStarza was a coward but he (or, excuse me, his management) refused matches with Henry, Charles, Baker, and Archie Moore. In an article in RING magazine after his career LaStarza admitted as much, saying he wouldn't take those matches because he "deserved" a rematch with Marciano and thought he was offered the other matches by the IBC only because they were trying to knock him out of "his rightful shot at Marciano." Boo Hoo Hoo. Real, confident fighters go out and prove they deserve their shot by beating dangerous fighters to force a showdown with a champion. Again, let me reinterate-when Marciano fought LaStarza the first time Rocky was boxing for the first time after the Vingo tragedy. Rocky had threatened to quit boxing. Is it any wonder he was not the usual agressive Marciano but an understandably gunshy, tenitive boxer that night ?"- Chuck Hasson Boxing Historian



Former Chester Times sports writer Matt Zabitka wrote, “Jones wasn’t given even a minuscule chance of defeating Roland LaStarza, let alone lasting more than a round.

“LaStarza, who was to face undefeated champion Rocky Marciano in a world title bout in September of 1953, was seeking some patsies to beef up his record.

“Jones, a short, muscular type blessed with tons of guts, was booked to be LaStarza’s human punching bag.”

In the rematch at Brooklyn’s Eastern Parkway Arena in front of a national television audience, Rocky lost a unanimous decision after knocking down LaStarza in the second round and cutting both of his eyes.

“LaStarza was the big draw then,” explained Zabitka. “He had to be protected. Jones was a nobody, hence the rapidly arranged rematch.”

Many years later, Rocky was asked why he didn’t continue his assault on LaStarza in their second bout. After knocking down LaStarza in the second round and bloodying his face, many fight fans felt Rocky could have finished him off.

Rocky’s answer was, “Before the fight, the big guys from New York came to see me. They just said, ‘You know what you’re supposed to do, don’t you, Rocky?’ They told me I wasn’t supposed to do my best.”

 

The Jones Lastarza rematch is on film. Jones puts lastarza on the floor again, has lastarzas bleeding from one of his eyes...then rounds 3-10 Jones just stops fighting...doesn’t throw many punches, doesn’t go for the throat. During this time, lastarza looks awful as well...he doesn’t do a lot, just a little more than Jones to win the decision.

This is supposed to be the number 1 contender in the world against a 14-9 club fighter. This isn’t embarrassing to you?

Go through the other top contenders of the 1950s...do any of them struggle to beat Jones?

 

Oh you have that on film too? You seem to be sitting on a lot of film that nobody else is allowed to see. Is that so we have to accept your view of the fight rather than decide for ourselves? The full Lastarza vs Brion fight , Lastarza vs Jones... what other gems do you have?

 

Never said i had brion Lastarza ...once again you make things up. Not surprising considering your true agenda

Who do you think was the original person whom uploaded that Charles brion HL to toutube? It was me 6 years ago

I never said no one else is allowed to see. I’d like to upload some of my 1950s film..especially on Clarence Henry...but to educated passionate fans, not trolls like you who are here for only one reason

I happen to know a collector who owns a lot of rare 1950s heavyweight fights