Jerry Quarry v Roland Lastarza,Rex Layne,Don Cockell?

"How does LaStarza leapfrog Henry?"

Because Henry lost to Johnson and Moore, and had that embarrassing loss to Buford. No one knew at this point how good Johnson would later be.

Here are the actual ratings going into September, 1953

Champion-----Rocky Marciano
1-----Roland LaStarza
2-----Ezzard Charles
3-----Dan Bucceroni
4-----Nino Valdes
5-----Tommy Harrison
6-----Bob Satterfield
7-----Heinz Neuhaus
8-----Don C-ckell
9-----Earl Walls
10----Harry Matthews

Now of these top contenders, LaStarza had beaten Bucceroni who had beaten Harrison, and LaStarza had beaten Layne who held wins over Charles and Satterfield.

Who should be number one? Charles is coming off a loss to Valdes. Valdes had lost 4 of 5 prior to upsetting Charles.

Baker and Henry aren't even in the top ten at this point, whatever they had done years earlier or would do years later.

The color line point is true, but why select LaStarza out of all the white contenders from the late 1940's into even the 1970's (Terry Daniels, anyone) who got shots. He was one of the few who actually earned a title shot.

And, in fairness, the black champions were not anxious to fight black challengers. Most of the marginal white challengers over the years fought black champions. Marciano's pair of LaStarza and Don C were actually higher rated and less arbitrary than, lets repeat the list, Lesnevich, Valentino, Beshore, Barone, Rademacher, London, McNeeley, London again, Zyglewicz, Daniels, Stander, Wepner, Dunn, Coopman, etc.

I agree that Valdes should have gotten the shot over Don C (but not Moore), but LaStarza was the legit #1 contender.

Those four men you mentioned as being nothing were nevertheless all rated at one time or another, and I think all rated when LaStarza beat them, at least by the NBA, in either the light-heavy or heavyweight divisions. A lot of guys have gotten shots at the title w/o beating four men rated when he fought them.

 

I'll be the first to admit that I'm far from schooled on Rocky Jones, how would you guys say he compares to someone like Ross Purity? Someone that boasts a below average record and resume, but was able to beat a future world champ that reigned for over a decade

 

"The color line being drawn was still alive in the 50s"

I agree, at least to an extent, but I don't think Marciano, Layne, or Harris really deserve criticism on this point.

LaStarza is a different matter, but he did fight top white fighters to get there, and these top white fighters had fought and defeated many of the top black fighters. So the case isn't as open and shut as you are making it out to be.

But, in fairness, were the black champions like Charles and Patterson jumping into the ring with all the top black contenders?

 

Wait so losing to Johnson and Moore quantify beign removed from number 5 in 1952 to unrated? How would lastarza have done had he fought Moore and Johnson? Seems to me like Henry should get credit for taking on two of the elites in boxing! Instead he gets penalized!

"Buford embarrassing"

Funny this happened back in 1950, 3 years prior...since then Henry had avenged that loss. Yet, lastarza loses embarrassingly to jones just one year prior to receiving a title shot and that loss doesn't hurt lastarzas rating at all? Must be nice to be white in lastarzas case


Who should be number 1? Why not Archie Moore? Beat valdes Henry satterfield that head.

Where is Clarence Henry? How is he not in the rankings? He beat baker TWICE.....Somehow bob satterfield sits at number 6 despite being knocked out cold by Henry in 1

Harrison at 5 is laughable. He was sparring partner level.

Bucceroni? We all know why bucceroni was number 3...because he beat lastarza! Rather than penalize lastarzas rating, they boost up bucceroni rating to make lastarza look better for beating him in a rematch....some nice connections Roland had there

I agree worse fighters than lastarza received title shots. But was Roland really number 1 worthy? Over Moore? Over Johnson?

Roland beat bucceroni, Brion, and Layne in 1952-1953. With bad losses to bucceroni and jones

Archie Beat satterfield, Henry, Valdes. That's a better group. With no losses from Archie


Once again I'll ask...does beating a fading Layne, sparring partner brion, going 1-1 with bucceroni, and going 1-1 with Rocky jones earn you a number 1 spot?

 

Lastarza absolutely drew the color line....

Louis, Charles, Jackson, Walcott, Moore, Johnson, baker, Henry, Valdes, satterfield were top rated heavyweights from 1950-1953....

Lastarza somehow managed to fight none of these men? Is it a coincidence most of these men happen to be big punchers and Roland fought none of them?

"Lastarza fought men who beat these men"

He beat one man who beat these men, a shopworn version of Rex Layne who was fading fast. Who I thought won the fight vs lastarza.....You want to hang lastarzas career on him winning a controversial decision over a man who was getting outpointed by 11-2 Willie james at that stage of his career?


Bucceroni- got knocked out by Jackson

Brion- got dominated by Louis and Baker

One of the few black man lastarza fought, rocky jones, beat him!


Good point about Patterson and Charles, but at least Charles took on most of those men in non title bouts....he fought satterfield, Valdes, Louis, Moore, Johnson and Walcott...he took a lot more chances than lastarza did.

Again, how did lastarza miss out on all those talented black men

 

"Where is Clarence Henry?"

He didn't fight for over a year and so was dropped out of the ratings due to inactivity.

"Why not Archie Moore?"

He was rated at light-heavyweight as champion, and apparently wasn't lobbying for a shot at the heavyweight title and so was not rated there.

I don't see Charles or Moore being much of an issue concerning LaStarza, as both got their shots at Marciano.

"Henry should get credit for taking on two of the elites in boxing."

He would deserve more credit if he actually defeated them. Johnson had been stopped by Walcott, whom Layne defeated. Why exactly should Henry be rated above Layne? And his big win over Baker didn't look as big when Baker went out in one to Satterfield and fought Gilliam on even terms, losing to him once.

"Harrison at #5 is laughable. He was sparring partner level."

Well, from 1952 to 1954 he defeated Paul Andrews, lost to Jones, defeated Norkus, Bivins, and Bascom, lost to Charles, beat Bivins and Bascom again, lost to Bucceroni, drew with Slade, beat Murray Bennett, and finally beat Earl Walls. All these guys except Bennett were rated during 1952 to 1954, some right near the top. Andrews, for example, was the #2 light-heavy in 1954. Harrison was rated from 1952 into 1954. It is true his career then fell apart, as many do.

"losing to Jones . . . doesn't hurt LaStarza's rating at all."

It did. He dropped from #3 to #7, but he moved back up by defeating Jones in the re-match.

"Bucceroni"

Actually, Bucceroni was not even rated anywhere in 1952 after beating LaStarza. He had been rated in 1950 and 1951 at light-heavy. Bucceroni moved back in and then up in the ratings via victories over Danny Nardico, Rocky Jones, Wes Bascom, Tommy Harrison, Jimmy Slade, Freddie Beshore, and Hein Ten Hoff.

"It helps to be white"

This is true. I don't dispute it.

But you do play a ducks and drakes game by dismissing the close fight with Marciano and the victory over Layne.

 

"how did LaStarza miss out on all those talented black men"

He ducked them. Layne didn't, but that didn't earn Layne a shot. Truthfully, some can back into title shots-many of the white guys for certain. Others have to really earn it, and that does include some of the white guys. Marciano had to beat Layne, Louis, and Matthews, besides old Savold and a few other decent fighters. Layne beat several tough guys but never got a shot. Savold also. It is fair to point out that Layne and Savold also lost key fights, but it is equally fair to point out so did Baker and Henry and Valdes and Satterfield.

Valdes was not a top-rated fighter before LaStarza was matched with Marciano.

"These men happen to be big punchers."

None of them had the KO record Marciano had.

Also, here are the KO percentages

Bucceroni (34 of 56) 61%
Baker (20 of 68) 29%
Layne (34 of 70) 49%
Henry (19 of 41) 46%

I don't see that there is that strong a case for Baker and Henry being bigger punchers than Bucceroni and Layne. Satterfield, despite a low KO percentage, was in another league as a puncher, I think, but was chinny.

"Bucceroni got knocked out by Jackson."

And Henry lost to Jackson, as did Baker twice, and Charles twice. I noted that Jackson had more credentials as a challenger than LaStarza.

Brion--"got dominated by Louis and Baker." If he could beat those guys, and Charles, he would have been the champion. Does not actually prove he was not a worthy trial horse type.

LaStarza and black opponents? You asked how many Roland fought. Hard to tell, but up to the 2nd Marciano fight, I think Oscar Goode, Eldridge Eatman, Keene Simmons (2), Ted Lowry, Joe McFadden, Rocky Jones (2), Gene Felton, and Jimmy Walls, at the least, and probably others but who can tell w/o photos.

Not exactly drawing the color line. More the quality line.

 

Clarence Henry, despite his low Ko percentage, was in another league as a puncher like satterfield. If you don’t believe me watch the films. He had a devastating left hook.

Watch Henry vs satterfield, he outslugged satterfield and bEat him at his own game. He knocked out an undefeated bob baker in a brilliant finish at Madison square garden.

what quality heavyweights did Bucceroni ever knock out at heavyweight who compare to baker and satterfield? Henry also beat John Holman.

In fact, Bucceronis knockout percentage went way down when he moved north of 175. Whose his best knockout win? An ancient Freddie Beshore?

You are way off here. Use the eye test. Judge the quality of competition. Henry was the much bigger hitter than Bucceroni at heavyweight

“Henry lost to Jackson”

When he was legally blind. You hold that against him?


Henry went 4-0 against Holman baker and satterfield.

What would lastarza record been against Holman baker and satterfield?

 

I believe outside of Marciano, the black heavyweights were far superior to white heavyweights in the early 50s.


1950-1955

Black vs white heavyweights

Excluding Marciano


Best black heavyweights

Louis, Charles, Walcott, Johnson, Moore, Henry, Jackson, Valdes, baker, satterfield, Holman


Best white heavyweights

Lastarza, Norkus, oma, Layne, cockell, matthews, neuhas, sys, Bucceroni, Brion , Savold

11 vs 11


Here’s how they fared against one another


Final Record : Black 22 wins, 4 losses

Black Heavyweights:


Louis- W Savold, Brion 2x
Charles- W norkus, Layne 2x, oma, Brion . L Layne
Walcott - L Layne
Johnson- None
Moore- W norkus, D sys
Henry- None
Jackson- W Norkus, Layne 2x, Bucceroni.
Valdes- W sys, neuhas, cockell
Baker- W Layne 3x, Brion,
Satterfield- W oma, L Layne, oma
Holman- W Brion,


Outside of Marciano, the best 11 black heavyweights went 22-4 vs the best white heavyweights

 

That’s all well and good after the event. When the careers are done and we can look back. It dosnt mean Lastarza and Layne did not deserve to be rated as high as they were within the rankings. Nor does it mean they were undeserving or that they did not pay their dues by beating all the fighters to legitimately earn their ratings.

 

I have never said Layne didn’t earn his ranking. Why do you make stuff up?

Layne was not afraid to take on top black men. Lastarza was.

Lastarza did not earn his number 1 rating by going 2-2 with Bucceroni and Jones and winning a highly controversial decision over a past his peak Rex Layne, and a win over sparring partner brion

 

"When he was legally blind"

This is the Jet magazine coverage of Henry's retirement--

"Only 28, the Los Angeles fighter said he was quitting because of a serious eye injury he received in a 'freak' gym accident. On the advice of doctors, he laid off for a year, then recently resumed his career, losing upset bouts to Hurricane Jackson and Jimmy Slade."

Henry laid off for over a year, dropping out of the ratings. He came back to win a warm-up fight, and then in December, 1953, defeated Bob Baker by a one-sided decision. He lost to Slade in February of 1954, and Jackson in March, 1954.

My question is what source does the "legally blind" come from. It seems unlikely given the Baker fight. Bob Baker loses badly to a man who is legally blind? The Slade and Jackson fights and Henry's retirement were only two to three months later. Seems more likely he just didn't want to risk more injury when it became obvious he wasn't going to make it to big money fights. I don't have any inside info, but am curious where something as extreme as "legally blind" comes from.

As for punching power, I have no problem rating them in order Henry, Layne, Bucceroni, and Baker. But it seems a moot point to me when LaStarza was matched twice with Marciano, the most dangerous puncher of the era.

 

I like what you did here. I did something like that for one of the Johnson-Wills threads--don't recall which one--but found that McVea never lost to a white fighter, and Jeannette only to one. Wills didn't lose to a white fighter until 37 and Jack Sharkey. I also remember doing it for the turn of the century era with different results. Jeffries beat Jackson, Armstrong, and Griffin. Choynski beat Johnson and Childs. So the white section of the division looked strong back then.

No doubt that except for Marciano, the top heavyweights from the Louis era until the Klitschkos were black.

Two in fairness things. Savold was basically a forties fighter. He had a number of wins, and quite a few losses, to name black fighters back then. Bucceroni defeated Rocky Jones, Wes Bascom, Tommy Harrison, and Jimmy Slade during the 1952 to 1954 period. These men were rated. Harrison had a couple of wins over Bivins and one over Walls. Slade beat Henry and Jackson during this period.

Also, this proves the much greater depth of black talent, but doesn't necessarily prove Layne and Bucceroni were not good scalps. Layne beat Walcott, Charles, and Satterfield. Bucceroni beat Slade who then beat Henry and Jackson.

 

Yes Roland deserved his number one ranking. What are you talking about? Lastarza legitimately climbed the ratings by beating guys rated higher than he was. Going into a title fight Rollie had beat Every man he ever fought apart from a split decision to Marciano.