IMO a good time to look at a potential fight between the two; Jerry (I think) fought Buster Mathias around that time while Leotis was 'globetrotting' trying to establish himself as a viable contender (see boxrec) fighting on short notice a few times. Many on board here seem to write off Leotis as nothing more than tough Philly' journeyman'. Though Sonny was old at that point he was still dangerous and still possessed his power. Leotis fought him much like Ali, circling, and biding his time. Common opponents? Leotis, a last minute substitute in the Elimination Tourney, was in trouble early against Ellis and suffered nose and mouth cuts which eventually forced the stoppage; however, he appeared to be coming on at the end. The Quarry-Ellis 'title' bout was a snoozefest to say the least. Martin KO'd Spencer in London after the tourney; Jerry did the same at the end of their bout in the Tourney. Final analysis? Leotis had a good jab and Jerry always was prone to taking them. Unless Quarry found the range and put some combos on Leotis I don't see Jerry stopping him unless he could cut Martin up IMO a dubious possibility. I see a Martin UD here or a UD either way. Martin would jab and counter; Jerry would counter, land, but would be on his toes from the jab and...IMO didn't have the power to put Martin out unless he could put together 3-4 shots quickly. Final analysis: If Martin won he would have continued into the early 70's before fading (with no detached retina). He may have gotten a Frazier fight in the next year and would have been stopped. Jerry's legacy, IMO, would not have suffered in the least: same big subsequent wins, same sad losses. My $0.02
Yeah, Ive got ever scrap of footage on Martin known to exist and short of being dangerous in spots if you slept on him he wasnt anything special. The only way I see him beating Quarry is on cuts and thats an outside chance at best. Id pick Quarry by comfortable decision or KO. Martin never beat anyone as good as Quarry (no the 1970 version of Liston was not as good as Quarry). Quarry beat several people as good or better than Martin.
Hey 'klomp'! Perhaps I tend to over reach a bit with Leotis but I was talking about a mythical bout that would have taken place in late 1968. I don't think its fair to list Jerry's subsequent victories as an outcome barometer. Who were the finest Jerry had bested at that point? Spencer? So did Leotis, same fashion. My hero Floyd? A MDraw & a MDecision; Floyd's passivity cost him both times. If Patterson fought Martin the same way IMO you're looking at two decisions for Floyd with Martin game in both. London? Daniels? Hardly killer comp. Martin went to Germany after the tourney and KO'd Mildenburger, not too shabby. (haven't seen that one) At that time BOTH had some 'off' nights which they would like to forget. Quarry could be 'boxed', especially early on in his career; even Chuvalo was jabbing him; an old Machen schooled him. At that point in time I'm seeing what could have been a very competitive scrap. My $0.02
I think despite beating guys like Shavers and Lyle later Jerry was a better fighter in 68 than he was later so that doesnt really help Leotis IMO. Jerry beating those guys after 68 didnt suddenly make him a better fighter. Nobody Martin beat was as good as 68 Quarry. I stand by that. Mildenberger wasnt. Pretending Chuvalo was outjabbing Quarry is laughable. Chuvalo lost every minute of every round until that flukish once in a lifetime hail mary saved him because he could have and would have been stopped any minute after that. If you have to bet Martins chances on a fluke hail mary punch that doesnt really say much for Martin. Saying that Floyd didnt beat Quarry because of FLOYDS passivity totally ignores the fact that everytime Floyd tried to get out of line Quarry dumped him. Martin wasnt some virtuoso boxer like an Ali, the guy lost a WIDE decision to Bonavena, was well behind against Listion, was outboxed by Ellis (who barely beat an injured Quarry), was outboxed by Henry Clark and Roger Russell and was simply in that class of journeymen that could occasionally surprise you but couldnt consistently be counted on to beat even fringe contenders. Quarry was more consistent and reliable than that. Martin got a lot of mileage out of KOing a ripe for the picking Liston, who had no interest fighting top contenders, and pretending to call out fellow townsman Frazier but theres no doubt in my mind based on his level of skill and the results he notched that he wouldnt have gone much further in the sport than he already did had he not suffered the injury. By the end of 68 when he had stepped up his competition he was literally losing every other fight. Thats not a coincidence.
I tend to overrate Leotis but I think you're giving Jerry more credit than is due. I don't think he was 'prime' in 68; he still had pacing and stamina issues that he, given, corrected. Give me some 'big' Quarry wins by the end of 68? Let's start with my hero Patterson. A majority draw and a majority decision. You said: "every time Floyd tried to get out of line Quarry dumped him". In a word...BS. Should have beaten him both times, well...you know Floyd. Spencer? Leotis put him out too. B. London? B. Daniels? Alex Mf? Who did Jerry ever KO among top-flighters? Mac Foster? In a word...Cooney Jr. Shavers? Jerry looked chiseled against Lyle (didn't stop him) earlier that year and looked a little 'doughboyish' against Earnie. Three months later Jerry got CLOCKED by journeyman Joe Alexander; does Joe have Earnie's power? Given, Jerry was drugging at the time and going through a divorce. No Sonny wasn't as good as Quarry in 69 but the last thing to go in a fighter is his punch and Sonny landed and Leotis persisted, taking some major body shots and the big left hook that dropped him. By the end of 68 'fringe' Tony Doyle appeared to have Jerry's number . You said everytime Leotis moved up he was losing every other fight. Well, when Jerry moved up he stopped no one...Mathis UD, Bodell? come on! I love Jerry, a true HOF'er. In closing, how about Jerry heading south to Luna Park, at that time, to face Ringo? IMO opinion, I see Leotis stealing a UD over Jerry in 68...possibly. Respect your posts, perhaps more knowledgable than myself. We'll keep "punching"...
Tony Doyle ? have Jerry's number? phone number? Jerry knocked out 4 top contender's , how many Leotis?? Jerry beat 8 ranked fighter's how many Martin? (5) not bad! Quarry was Ring magazine fighter of the month 5 times. Leotis? I'll go with Quarry anytime, yet I have a great respect for leotis Martin, and you made some good points, albeit jerry could not tie Ringo in the ring with him !
Good morning ronny! I brought Doyle up because he appeared to be the same type fighter as klompton said Martin was circa 68. Draw-Draw-Decision-Stoppage in four cracks at each other. I mentioned the thought of Quarry heading to Argentina circa 68 to face Oscar which Leotis did and lost a decision. Would Jerry have went to Luna Park in 68 and 'had his way' with Ringo then? Leotis KO'd Spencer, which Jerry did. Leotis beat Mildenburger in Germany, and KO'd an ancient Sonny who still had a whallop and took some huge shots along the way. Cuts did him in against Ellis in the tourney; Leotis was a last minute sub and appeared to be coming on as the fight progressed. In closing, I simply think klompton (who I respect) underrates Martin and over rates Jerry (who I loved) a bit especially Jerry's record from late-68 backward. I still think a fall 68 Quarry-Martin bout could have been an interesting, exciting bout. Leotis could box, move and jab and Jerry could be out boxed especially within the time frame I mentioned. My somewhat limited $0.02
Quarry was not always sharp. I'd pick Quarry to win here, but would consider Martin a live underdog. I agree with what Jowcol said. Quarry is a fan favorite here, and Martin is a little under rated. After his devastating KO over Sonny Liston ( Liston out cold for 60 seconds ) , Martin might have meet Joe Frazier next but his eye was damaged and he had to retire. I tend to think Martin would have given Frazier a good fight. Martin, just like Frazier was old school Philly tough! If you haven't seen Martin, he an iron type of chin, was very brave / game, hit pretty hard ( Could use combinations ) and had a fine jab with good stamina. Is there film of Martin vs Spencer? I hear it was a great fight. The sort we don't see these days when evenly matched 200 pound men went at each other.
Greetings Mendoza! No footage exists (as far as I know.) They fought in London of all places? Must have been a treat for the Brits.
Jowcol: oh Martin was good no doubt about it, I'd have to be a dummy, to think otherwise, he was like 5-3 -(4 knockouts or so) vs TOP TEN Opponents. I just know you take the World Boxing HOF off Jerry's record and he's like 52-1-3 (32 knockouts) excluding that freak fight in colorado, When Jerry 47 could not walk a straight line. And that was before the fight!
You mentioned Jerry was not always sharp, At his best vs Martin 1968-69, I'd give Jerry a slight edge by decision. And the biggest things I hate about what might have been> "We will never know!" I will say this Jerry sold a lot of Boxing Magazines. That Quarry punching himself out vs "Smokin Joe" would have been pure hell for anyone of those Top Ten heavyweights.
