Jess Willard versus Jim Jeffries

I doubt this. If you saw the same training film as I have and you think his agility and reflexes are over rated, I then ask compared to whom?

Total Cherry picking OLD FOGEY. Sharkey was floored in both fights, and if not for the injury Jeffires likely finishes him in the title match. Jeffries KO% in title matches is near the best in heavyweight history. Only a very tough Sharkey made the distance.

Jeffires did knock Ruhlin down and had him out in the final round. Ruhlin was saved by the bell. In the title fight Jeffries knocked Ruhlin out. Griffin was Ko'd, and floored multiple times in an exhibition. Who else knocked Munroe out besides Jeffries? No one that I can think of. Was Everett in his prime ever beaten so quickly? I think not!

There is limited film of a prime Jeffries, and the jab was not a big punch in those days, however Jeffries had a jab according to news reads. Jeffries performance vs Johnson means very little in this conversation, and Willard did not have an uppercut equal to Johnson’s.

I was talking about the first fight when Corbett was at his best and 33 years of age. The second fight was easy for Jeffries, who by then had gained some experience. Fitz hit harder than Willard, and was a much better fighter. If he couldn’t KO Jeffries with doctored gloves, what makes you think Willard could? Again, Willard mostly failed to knockout his best opponents.

Which contempories had dounts about Jeffires power? Names please. And was Willard really that Rugged? He quit once, and was TKO by the two best punchers he faced inside of 8 rounds both times.

Hand speed is a factor in heavyweight boxing in most cases. Defense, and footwork also matter. I can't think of one advantage Willard had over Jeffries, aside from size. Here's my run down:

Power - Jeffries
Size - Willard
Hand and foot speed - Jeffries
Defense - Jeffries
Chin - Jeffries
Stamina - I will call it a draw.
Skills - Jeffries
Ring General ship - Jeffries
Heart - Jeffries

And finally, I have never read any historian say that Willard was better or ranked higher.

Pick Willard if you wish. You're in the minority.

 

Actually all we know of Willards stamina is the fight with Johnson. He lost to Smith in his only 20 and in his next longest bout lost to McMahon. Maybe we are giving him too much stamina credit for the win over an out of shape, old and under-motivated Johnson. I ask the question because this thread made me suddenly realise I attribute this stamina claim for Willard also. What do you guys thing? Revisionalism?

 

NO ONE KOD JOHNSON WITH A PUNCH TO THE CHIN,GIVE PROOF TO THE CONTRARY,AND STOP MAKING STATEMENTS YOU CANT VERIFY.YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MANY FIGHTS I WATCH OR HOW MANY NEWS CLIPPINGS I READ,AS USUAL YOU ARE TALKING ****!You are a self appointed expertand historian whose knowledge is vastly overestimated by yourself,your conceit and vanity has detached you from reality. your statement was that Johnsons chin was suspect against punchers PROVE IT OR RETRACT IT.YOU COULD TELL JACK **** FROM THE WAY JOHNSON REACTED TO KETCHELS PUNCH,IMMEDIATELYAFTER THE FIGHT ,JOHNSON WAS ASKED HOW HE FELT BEING FLOORED BY KETCHEL,HE REPLIED,"FAR BETTER THAN KETCHEL DID 30 SECONDS LATER,HE CROSSED ME ,I HANDED HIM WHAT HE DESERVED". aND DONT GIVE ME DUE RESPECT ,I DONT HAVE ANY FOR YOU,YOU ARE A SELF SERVING COMPLACENT PRAT.

 

Johnson was most Certainly Ko’d from head blows. Deal with it, and clam down. You have chosen to make it personal.



If you keep acting snooty, how can I help you on paragraph formation, spelling, or on boxing? To the rest of the board, you can skip this back and forth stuff. Or sit back and enjoy the show. I plan on sticking in boxing related stuff when McVey needs the proverbial pie in the face.

 

HOW IS A FIGHTER WHO DEPENDED ON HIS REFLEXES AND TIMING LIKE NO OTHER OF HIS TIME ,AT HIS BEST WHEN HE HAS HAD 1 FIGHT IN THREE YEARS SINCE LOSING HIS CROWN AND THAT ONE A LOSING ONE.?
jEFFRIES NEVER KOD RUHLIN IN THEIR TITLE FIGHT ,RUHLINS CORNER THREW IN THE TOWEL BETWEEN ROUNDS,EITHER YOUR RESEARCH IS SLOPPY OR YOU ARE DELIBERATEDLY TWISTING THE FACTS , I COULD USE ANOTHER EXPRESSION BUT I WONT. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF FITZS GLOVES WERE DOCTORED? MORE UNSUBSTANTIATED ASSERTIONS.YOU TALK ABOUT CHERRY PICKING TO JANITOR ,YOU MUST LIVE IN AN ORCHARD.WHERE IS YOUR SOURCE FOR JEFFRIES POWER BEING CONSIDERED EQUAL TO DEMPSEYS AS YOU QUOTED.?

 

I put this in capitols in case you have problems reading small print .
WHERE IS YOUR PROOF THAT JOHNSON WAS KOD BY A PUNCH TO THE CHIN?
DONT DILUTE YOUR ORIGINAL STATEMNET TO "HEAD PUNCHES "YOU SAID HE HAD A SUSPECT CHIN AGAINST PUNCHERS ,PUT UP OR SHUT UP!

 

Perhaps the small type hinders your comprehension. This is odd since you usually do not type in CAPS, and reply most of the time in small print. I digress.

When I say Johnson had a suspect chin vs punchers, this is to say punchers can knock him out. If could be anywhere, and most ko's aren't from direct chin shots.

Choynski, Klondike, and Willard produced classic on the floor knockouts. Each man could punch. Of course later in his career Johnson was KO’d quite a bit too.

Once again, a fighters durbality is best tested when they are hit. When you fight green or much smaller fighters who can't hit, your durablity is not tested as much.

In the context of heavyweight champions it would be an easy exercise to name at least 12 other champions who took a better punch than Johnson.

If your looking for a chin shot KO, how's this:

Uppercuts land on the chin area more often than not. Happy?

 

You have ducked the question as usual,and arent a big enough poster to admit your fault,you said "suspect chin"end of story,you gave no proof to back up your false claim ,as I knew you wouldnt .Johnson was 37 when Willard kod him,and it took him26 rounds in the tropical sun to do it.Johnson was kod after this fight twice by Bearcat Wright and Bill Hartwell ,but that was in 1928 and Johnson was 50 and retired ,does that mean he had a suspect chin? How about his " fight with Walter Price even later ? want to count that one? YOU ARE A SAD ONE ARENT YOU. HOW YOU MUST HATE JOHNSON.

 

Now you're spliting hairs with dates. I see. I did list the Gunboat Smith vs Jack Johnson 4 round match. Be sure to read it. I've got soem more to post later.

Heavyweight who are Ko'd by light heavies, and floored by middles can not say they have a good chin.

I am out for the night. See ya McVey.

 

Ironically ,I posted the Willard Jeffries thread as a "spoof " to Mendacity,I mean Mendoza,mocking his pretensions to objectivity,but the thread seems to have grown legs,now that I seriously analyse it Willard does have a shot ,your points about Jeffries power are well observed Fitz certainly hs better credentials against common opponents,Johnson thought Fitz the superior puncher to Jefrries,and Choynsky better than both of them,but them he was younger and comparatively green against Choynsky,that impression may have registered deeper.,Gun boat Smith said Willard was a vicious puncher and he met quite a few for comparison ,including Langford and Dempsey.Smith also said Willard could take a hell of a punch and Smith could really hit,when he fought Willard Smith had his hands loaded ,[taped over with electrical tape] this does work beleive me!I know,Ive used it,Smith hit Willard with ,as he described it "his Sunday punch, straight from the floor,Willard s hair wiggled a bit". Later on Smith landed his big punch again ,half tearing Willards ear off,but Jess went the distance.
Talent wise Willard wasnt in Jeffries class ,Jeff was a dominant Champion as you stated ,but Jess might have given him a good go for say 20 rounds ,he was tough ,durable ,strong ,and he could hit,Jeffries never met a man his equal in size or weight this fight would have answered a lot of questions about the Boilermaker.

 

For the note, I was using track-and-field numbers to illustrate the kind of talent he was, not to argue that he woud beat Willard because he could outsprint him- it's an objective measurement(how good he was at running and jumping in set environments) that helps to illustrate/strengthen a qualitative judgment(how quick/able on his feet he was as far as boxing went)

On this part of your post, I will disagree slightly- one can find quotes saying, for example, that Samuel Peter "outboxed" Toney in their rematch, but I absolutely would not believe anyone who tried to tell me Peter has developed into a good boxer and well-rounded fighter. I concede that Jeffries had developed enough skill in addition to his physical and mental assets that he could score points against skilled boxers, but I don't believe he was himself really what you'd call a "good boxer." He was a decent boxer who had great durability and stamina along with good size, athleticism and power, all of which combined made him a great champion and a formidable force for anyone to try to take down.

 

This seems a fair analysis to me,and one that agrees with the consensus of written material on Jeffries and his fights.

 

Was Gunboat Smith a big puncher? I think this is an exaggeration. While Smith did KO men like Flynn, and Ross faster than Jack Johnson, where are his Knockouts vs the better heavyweights?

The record stats that Smith only had 39 Ko's in 81 wins. This equates to him winning 48.14% or less than half of his fights by knockout. If I were calculate his true KO percentage until 1917 ( Smith went into a tail spin around this time ) , and add the losses and draws, it’s even lower.

If Willard really thought Smith could punch ( Please back this up Mcvey, as your humor seemed to be hit or miss ) then he's in trouble vs the better punchers. As I said before the two best punchers Willard fought stopped him inside of 8 rounds, he quit once, and could be out pointed.