"Jim J. Jeffries vs. Max Baer" (Heavyweight Title Dream Fight.) Who is the man?

What if the main event is Joe Goddard vs. Henry Maske tho

 

Jeffries would still be outweighing Baer by like 10-15 pounds, a peak Baer was a little under 210 and a peak Jeffries was anywhere from 220-235 by some reports. You need more than being of similar size and having power alone to beat Jeffries, Munroe was 215 lbs and was named the hardest puncher by Tom Sharkey who fought pretty much every notable puncher from the era. I doubt there's a significant gap in power when comparing Munroe and Baer with this in mind given their similar size.

A punch test featuring Jeffries, McVea and Fitz was conducted in 1902 and came to the conclusion that Fitz had comparable power to McVea. McVea was a very big and formidable hitter and Fitz hit Jeffries plenty, showing the formidability of Jeff's chin;

Oxnard Courier on March 29 1902:

Bob Fitzsimmons 1070lbs, Jim Jeffries 1100lbs, Sam McVea 1270lbs

Jeffries was also one-handed in the Armstrong fight due to injuries to his left, when the two sparred again around 1900 Jeffries toyed with Armstrong. Jeffries also sent Sharkey to the canvas twice early before injuring his arm in that same round, and was also injured in their first encounter. All of these injuries were documented quite rigorously at the time so it's not like they're baseless excuses by Jeffries to excuse his poor performances.

"Yes Uzcudin beat Max Baer in a 20 round decision but Uzcudin has one of the best chins in the history of the HW division. Baers main weakness guys he has a hard time hurting. Jeffries isn't that guy."

How isn't Jeffries that guy? He's one of the toughest fighters to ever grace the sport and was never dropped by anyone he faced until Johnson. All the evidence we have suggests he is one of those guys.

Not to mention Baer probably won't have an easy time finding Jeffries compared to Fitz or Corbett, given the fact that Baer is so aggressive and that type of style famously plays into Jeff's hands.

 

I agree with this! As much as I like Max Baer, he was no James J. Jeffries. Both seemed to have some problems with crafty boxers, but, for the record, I think James J. Corbett was superior to James J. Braddock. Jim Jeffries was a much more consistent fighter and that also counts for a lot with me. Even though this was designed as a Prime vs Prime fight, I cannot totally ignore their other fights. In a 10, 12, 15, or 20 (plus) round fight, I am going with The Boilermaker in a great fight to watch.

 

I don't think any of the guys in that era could hang with later eras. I give Fitz and Goddard a punchers chance because of their power.

"I doubt there's a significant gap in power when comparing Munroe and Baer with this in mind given their similar size." I do. Munroe has a high KO rate because he had a super short career. Hes also not a similar size to Max Baer in height the power he had came from his weight. In terms of Sharkeys account KO victims aren't the most reliable measurers of power for a number of reasons whether that be not remembering the hardest shots or fighters with power not needing to use all of it.

In terms of McVeas power there is nothing on his record to support him having Fitz power. Boxing rec records are incomplete but we don't him listed knocking out guys weighing x pounds and the big guys he knocked out like Ferguson and Russell took awhile. While McVeas KO rate is 81% after Denver Ed Martin McVea never KO'd a top black HW again. in 37 encounters with Langford, Jeanette, Wills, Jack Johnson, Jim Johnson and Jack Thompson McVea only scored a single knockout over Jim Johnson and it took 21 rounds. McVeas rate isn't hurt by this because he only won 11 of these fights. McVea won most of his fights with Jeff Clark and he got 1 KO in 6 fights took 15 rounds. Not that he couldn't hit hard he has some good KOs like Lang, Rodel and Bell but theres nothing historic about his power. Same with Munroe.

Sources make it seem like the injury didn't effect Jeffries ability to fight much in the Armstrong fight. Sharkey went the distance in both their fights so the injury isn't an excuse for not stopping him. And Sharkey ultimatly was under 5 ft 9.

Jeffries fought in the earliest era of the sport and his most dangerous opponents were so old gloved boxing didn't exist until they were adults. Lets say Jeffries is as tough as Uzcudin for the sake of argument. He still relied on his size advantage to win fights even in his era. How is he going to outbox a Max Baer?

 

Sharkey didn't get KO'd by Munroe, he made that statement after the decision was called out. He's one of only three to make it to the cards with Munroe and called Munroe the hardest puncher he fought. Sharkey fought Goddard, Fitz, Maher, Jeffries, Choynski so this is a heavy compliment. Being shorter and stockier doesn't make him any less powerful imo.

McVea was a hard hitter with too much hesitancy and didn't enjoy forcing fights from what I've read from contemporaries, but he's still a powerfully built 210 pounds. He probably did hit harder than Fitzsimmons did when it came to raw power, and you'll agree if you believe that the science of that day has at least some merit when it comes to assessing punching ability. Fitzsimmons took part in a punch test (PSI) test alongside Jeffries and McVea, and the results were reported by Oxnard Courier on March 29 1902:

Bob Fitzsimmons 1070lbs, Jim Jeffries 1100lbs, Sam McVea 1270lbs

Jeffries had well documented hand injuries on both hands in the first Sharkey fight. In their rematch Jeffries had Sharkey down twice in the second round before his left arm gave out. Later in life Jeffries would tell Sharkey that he would've knocked him out had he been healthy in either encounter and it's hard not to believe him.

His injury in the Armstrong fight heavily impacted Jeff's performance if you go by most of the sources that acknowledged his injury. Delaney wasn't even sure Jeffries would be able to fight again due to it. His left, his good hand, was crippled from the first round. Some argued he should've won anyway due to being in a different class to Armstrong, but his good hand was handicapped. Jeff's hype train skyrocketed after beating Sharkey the first time so this performance was so underwhelming that many in the media chose to just bash his performance without taking his injuries into account just like the Sharkey rematch. Jeffries was built up, then immediately disappointed;

"He (Jeffries) fought with an injured hand, it is true, but as Armstrong was never a first-rater, the performance was a bitter disappointment." - The Sun

Others did acknowledge that the broken hand played a significant role though;

"Many are willing to bet that any one of them (Corbett, Fitzsimmons, McCoy) will put him (Jeffries) to sleep in ten rounds. However, these enthusiasts may be fooled. The big fellow undoubtedly shattered his thumb early in the fight with Armstrong, so he had to proceed with care." New York World, August 7, 1898

"I do not believe that people should be hasty in criticizing Jeffries' showing against Armstrong last night. True, he did not knock the colored man out, therefore disappointing many people, but the fact that he fought nine rounds with a broken hand must not be overlooked." - Sullivan

The World newspaper lauded Jeffries as he "had proven that he could win even when handicapped and in pain, something not every fighter could do."
There's a reason why Jeffries toyed with Armstrong in their sparring sessions later in his career, "Armstrong showed up very well, but it was plainly evident that Jeffries was his master at all stages. " January 26 1901

Gloved boxing had existed since the 1740s as they were used for sparring by every top level boxer, it's fundamentals and how it differs from bare knuckles had been well established even by the time it became legalized in the 1860s. Boxing as a craft would not significantly develop after the 1820s from the manuals and fight descriptions I've read.
I think outboxing and countering Baer is how Jeffries would win this fight, as I find that he is the faster and superior technician from the film I've seen and that's not counting the descriptions that describe him as being a bigger Tommy Ryan with the speed of a bantamweight.

If Jeff's chin can take Maxie's blows, I think it's checkmate.

 

Baer was not aggressive against fighters who came to him.
You can see him retreat and wait for a moment to explode all the time really.
The easiest example is the Schmeling fight were Schmeling came in overly aggressive and kept running into jabs.
Baer did initiate offense, especially in the opening round, but he spent half of that fight letting Schmeling come to him.

 

And Jeffries would not be coming to Baer if he pursued the same game plan against Fitzsimmons first time around, Jeffries at his peak was a very cautious counter puncher and the mechanics of his crouch laid the groundwork for Louis’ own crouch. I think Jeffries would be more effective with his quick short counters than Baer would be at trying to hunt or wait for Jeffries. You needed elite lateral movement to befuddle Jeffries