Jim Jeffries, underated ?

To get back to the original topic:

Jeffries resume has certain strengths that cannot easily be dismissed.

His title reign set the standard in terms of quality of opponents, and was not surpassed until Joe Louis came along. Even today, it is hard to find champions who have so consistently taken on the best available challengers.

Before his title reign, he was matched harder and sooner than any other champion in history. Getting to the top of the division with as few fights as he did, is an incredible accomplishment.

So yes, a top 10 ranking could certainly be justified.

 

With regard to Jack Johnson, he is not so much the forerunner of Lennox Lewis as the forerunner of Larry Holmes.

 

In regard to Jack Johnson -- again -- what else do y'all want from him? He beat the best of his generation, most men were smaller than him but for the most part, still came at the heavyweight limit that was in rule back then. Oh, and he kind had that whole first african-american heavyweight champion thing.

Does that mean everything? Of course not. But its prejudicial circumstances that only a few men had to encounter.

Best heavyweights of Johnson's generation:

- Bob Fitzsmmons
- Jim Jeffries
- Ketchell
- Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
- Tommy Burns
- Marvin Hart
- Langford
- McVea
- Jeannette
- Al Kaufman
- Sharkey
- Fireman Jim Flynn
- Denver Ed Martin
- George Gardner

He beat every single one of them, save for Marvin Hart. Including McVea (3x) and Jeannette (4x).

 

**** me Bert Sugar has come back to life

 

Jeffries was the best heavyweight of his time, and would have likely defeated Johnson had the two meet while Jeffries was active as champion from 1899-1904. Even McVey agrees with this. The Jeffries Johnson meet was old ( 35), inactive for 5+ years, lived a life full of alcohol, and had to shed 75+ pounds to get close to his fighting weight. That was Jeffries lone defeat. Fitzsimmons who was ringside said Jeffries wasn’t a quarter of the fighter he used to be. Unfortunely 99% of boxing fans only see Jeffries at his worst. To parallel, what if there was only one film on Ali, and it was the Holmes fight?



Nat Fleischer felt Jeffries beat the best competition, and he most certainly changed the game as champion by being an active champion. Many old time judges and promoters said he was the best. The fighters of the time concurred. Jack Johnson, Jim Corbett, Jack Dempsey, Sam Langford, Tommy Burns, Bob Fitzsimmons, and Tom Sharkey all felt Jeffries was the best. Essentially this is a who’s who list of lineal or colored champions giving their input. How some could rank Johnson or Dempsey much higher while the fighters themselves said Jeffries was the best is something I never quite understood. I have never seen Willard or Hart comment on the topic. If anyone has, please add it to this thread. In the 50’s there was a survey of historians held by McCallum, and Jeffries came out #1. So why has his stock fallen?



Jeffries to this day is misunderstood by many. Part of that is due to lack of film. Once the men who saw him or had first hand testimonials about him died, Jeffries fame took a tumble. As champion Jeffries improved, but he also retired young mostly due lack of funds and money for boxing post 1904. When Hart defeated Johnson in 1905, Jeffries said he would fight Hart if there was enough interest in the fight. There’ wasn’t. In addition Jeffries himself was never cozy with the press.



Jeffries had good size, stamina, durability, and power. Enough to compete as a heavyweight even modern times, but what many miss is he was agile on his feet for a 220 pound man. He had good hand speed, and a slip and duck defense on the outside, and superior clinching on the inside. Jeffries was a world class athlete stuck in a time where boxing techniques were still evolving. I still think he’s a top 5 ATG at heavyweight. Boxing has its share of physical marvels at heavyweight, but even ones like Liston, Forman, Lewis or Klitschko had Achilles heels. It could have been lack intestinal fortitude, stamina, chin, or heart. This is where Jeffries stands alone. He was a physical marvel with intangibles, durability and stamina. There hasn’t been one quite like him since.

 

Johnson made a prety clean sweep of the top fighters over a substantial period.

The problem is that he didn't beat some of the key names at the right time.

 

I agree. I think Lennox's resume is far better than Johnson's if you examine when their top wins happened. You could say Johnson was born at the right time. He cleaned up on the very light and green, and the old. According to research, he beat a 20 year old 156 pound Langford.


The nail in the coffin is when he fought men with good experience who were not 160 pounds, not green, and not old he lost not once or twice, but a few times to the likes of Choynski, Hart, and Griffin and Klondike.
As champion he was pretty much out boxed by Jack O'Brien according to several primary resources as champion. O'brien was a blown up super middle. The draw with Battling Jim Johnson, and his famous encounter with Gunboat Smith, whom according to the NY Times essentially TKO'd Johnson in a 4 round exhibition as champion makes you wonder.

 

Well 33 as Corbett was wasn't ancient in the first fight. Shareky's resume has hall of fames wins on it. Fitz also was deadly at age 36 or 38, check out who he beat. But I get the point you are trying to make..

 

I think we just need to accept that the division has developed and changed. Johnson was not given the benefit of being groomed under modern conditions fighting modern heavies with modern promotion and stakes. Conversely, Lewis would not have done what he did were he born in 1885.

I rate Lewis over Johnson and part of it is that the game provided better competition to prove himself against. I appreciate both fighters immensely, though.

 

Rocky Marciano never beat a boxer the quality of Jack Sharkey. His best win was against Roland LaStarza.

 

Are there no non-white boxers on there? I hadn't noticed.

I suppose, for the sake of balance, I could include one non-white heavyweight: David Tua. Very underrated.