Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

No, but their importance does vary with the move up in weight.

David Haye 217 w 12 Nicolay Valuev 316

Now this difference as a percentage of body weight is the same as a 110 lb man fighting a 185 lb man. Can you give me an historical example of a flyweight defeating the best 185 pounder in the world?

Nor is the Haye fight unique.

Joe Louis 196 ko 6 Primo Carnera 260
Jack Dempsey 187 ko 4 Jess Willard 245

In both cases the winner gave up over 30% of his body weight, and literally slaughtered the bigger man. Both big fellows were the best big ones in the world at the time. Can you give an example of a featherweight who slaughtered the best middleweight in the world? Can you give an example of a lightweight who slaughtered the best lightheavy in the world? That is what a featherweight or lightweight would have to do if giving away 30% of his body weight.

Nor are these unique
Al Gainer 168 stopped Tony Galento 220
Bob Satterfield 180 ko 1 Bob Baker 214
Bob Pastor 183 ko 7 Ray Impellittiere 238
Tommy Loughran UD Ray Impellettiere 255
Tommy Loughran UD Victorio Campolo 232
Bob Satterfield 183 UD Nino Valdes 215
Harold Johnson 176 UD Nino Valdes 210
Bob Fitzsimmons 170 ko 2 Ed Dunkhorst 260

*Why the difference. One factor is that the best punchers of a certain size, and I would guess this begins in the 170 to 190 lb range, potentially can punch hard enough to ko anyone. If your gun can kill the other fellow, you don't necessarily need a bigger gun. You need to be accurate and fast.

A second factor is that bigger men historically have tended to be less coordinated and skilled. It is not clear that they generally had better punch resistance or even as a group punched harder.

**Put another way, the "good big man beats the good little man" argument has more resonance with Dempsey versus Greb than it has with Jeffries or Baer versus Dempsey. Note the big difference. Greb might outspeed Dempsey, but definitely does not have anything like his power. Dempsey might indeed punch as hard, or even harder and more effectively, than either Jeffries or Baer, as well as being faster.

 

Chavalo was smaller, slower, easier to hit, and not as strong as Jeffries. I can't see Foreman scoring an early KO here, and he's stamina is too poor to be effective in the mid rounds. Watch Foreman gas out vs Ali who was easier to hurt and floor in comparison to Jeffries. Or watch Foreman glacial like speed and very limited gas tank when he was pressed early into a fight in Lyle. Foreman almost gassed out here.

 

Had jeffries so desired, he could have fought jack johnson.

This would give a fair comparison between opponents each man had as johnson in the modern era would probably resemble young or chris byrd.

Atleast then we could compare the fights each had.

James could also have defended against hart who was probably the next best hw. And who's relentless pressure would give some vague comparison to frazier and again allow some sort of opposition comparison.

In beating corbett, fitz and sharkey, jeffries did the smart thing because he cleaned out the legends of his era. He also ensure modern comparison is not favourable for him because of the size of each guy.

When picking between the guy who came from behind to stop cruiserweights or the guy who utterly destroyed heavyweights, i'll go for the latter.

 

Modern super heavies (with the exception of circus frauds like Valuev) are far, far superior to the lot posted above. The likes of Foreman, Bowe, Lewis and the K Bros are/were co-ordinated, athletic and possessed of speed and reflexes. They also, all of them in their primes, punched like a mule kicks. They were incredibly accomplished big men not the likes of Dunkhorst (his mention in these discussions was banned many months ago) or Impellittiere, who were such ham and eggers it's as though they competed in a different sport. The heavies of the last 40 years or so are just a different breed.

There is a reason power punching light heavies don't make a mark on the division beginning in the 70's. The emergence of the modern athlete eclipsed the abilities of the boxer.

 

I don't disagree with everything you write here--I think modern big men are better, but

"There is a reason power punching light heavies don't make a mark on the division beginning in the 70's"

Michael Spinks didn't make a mark at heavyweight?

And when did "powerpunching" lightheavies ever make that much of a mark at heavy unless they were also boxers.

 

I think it's limited to that list you say.

Foreman, bowe, lewis, vitali and wlad. Over the history of the sport, these are the only superheavyweights who reached the top of the division.

The irony is, foreman, vitali, bowe all lost to small heavyweights.

Lewis and wlad lost to regular sized heavyweights.

None have proved insurmountable.

However I do believe two things: styles make fights and a good big un beats a good little un.

Foreman showed he could gas and defensive minded hw's could take him into deep water.

Bowe showed weakness against a disciplined lateral moving outfighter.

Vitali showed weakness against anyone who could force their way inside.

Lewis showed that one punch can end a fight and most guys could end his fight if they threw the perfect punch.

Wlad showed weakness at first against those who didn't crumble beneath his attack. Since then he's been caught once by a southpaw counter but that's anomalous within the history of the division.

None of these guys proved invincible against any none-shw.

I do think to beat these men the victor has to be able to pull off these stylistic tendencies or be proven against real heavyweight opposition themselves.

In the specific case of foreman v jeffries, neither is the case.

 

I genuinely believe that if foreman fought jeffries schedule he'd have stopped them all within 6 rounds.

 

Then his handlers did him a gross disservice by matching him as they did in his pre title run!

 

I agree. Frazier was arguably his first live opponent. A huge jump up in class.

I'm not sure just how beneficial his 30 or so tomato cans were to his development.

Anyways I don't put much stock in stuff like that because the reality is jeffries did actually fight the guys and did actually beat them.

His greatness is secured by his dominant title run. His h2h prowess leaves a lot to be desired.

Hoping not to hijack the thread here but I think johnson might actually have beaten james had he been given the chance in 05.

It's just really hard picking jeffries against legitimate heavyweights because he never beat any in his own day.