Jim Jeffries v George Lawler - Undiscovered fight

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Boilermaker, Jul 10, 2010.


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  1. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Here is another undiscovered Jeffries fight, both KOs Not really a high quality fight or even a known opponent that means anything, but it is consistent with what i have previously read, in that Jeffries would go down and fight weekly at 'the club' in his early days. Since this report was for money, it would seem that it was more an exhibition or professional fight than an amateur matchup, which in truth, it sounds like it really was.

    Also, it is worth noting that although the article says Jeffries was about 17, it would seem that Jeffries was younger than 16, since he was 16 when the Griffin fight occurred.

    http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/57556714?searchTerm=fitzsimmons spar&searchLimits=
     
    Boilermaker, Mar 17, 2011
    Boilermaker, Mar 17, 2011
    #16
  2. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Here is another unrecorded fight. Obviously this one doesnt sound like it was for money, but it was scored so it was definitely a competive fight. And jeffries was apparently hurt from a body blow in it, when his opponent, A coast amateur champ in John Brink was forced to quit. By the way, this article explains the development of the Jeffries crouch. Very interesting.

    http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/35408529?searchTerm=fitzsimmons spar&searchLimits=
     
    Boilermaker, Mar 17, 2011
    Boilermaker, Mar 17, 2011
    #17
  3. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Boilermaker, Mar 17, 2011
    Boilermaker, Mar 17, 2011
    #18
  4. eslubin

    eslubin Active Member Full Member

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    Come on guys. If these fights meant anything they'd be on the books. Langford fought guys in the middle of no where and that made at least mentions in the national papers. No amount of George Lawlers is going to erase the black eye on Jeff's record no pun intended!

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TroTAs25RkU[/ame]

    www.youtube.com/eslubin
     
    eslubin, Mar 17, 2011
    eslubin, Mar 17, 2011
    #19
  5. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Boilermaker, Mar 17, 2011
    Boilermaker, Mar 17, 2011
    #20
  6. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    All I am seeing on this first link is Bob Fitzsimmons' record. It is from 1897. This has nothing to do with Jeffries. As for some of the others, take what is said about Jeff's career in 1936 with a grain of salt. I trust a primary source or an autobio written in 1910 much more than something written in 1936. Yes, he did spar with John Brink. I discuss it in my book.

    These guys back then sparred and exhibited with tons of fighters. If they weren't actual fights, they wouldn't necessarily make the national or even local papers, so it is possible that sparring exhibitions slipped through the cracks. We don't put Tyson's exhibitions with James Tillis on his record either.

    In the Ring With James J. Jeffries discusses Jeff's European exhibition tour on pages 250-261. Jeff mostly sparred with his brother Jack, who used the name "Jack Dunkhorst," and some other British fighters, but yes he did spar with several French kickboxers who knew little about how to use their hands, so Jeff barely even mentions these bouts in his autobiographies. He wasn't looking for any credit. American dispatches and what Jeff said upon his return confirms this. Not much should be made about his European tour. These were mostly semi-friendly exhibitions and not real fights, and the Frenchmen weren't real boxers.
     
    apollack, Mar 17, 2011
    apollack, Mar 17, 2011
    #21
  7. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The article two posts up describes (very briefly) a fight with a Savate Professer and an Englishman Jack Scales. I do agree that they are not official fights or world title defences, although it seems that many of the exhibitions we dont hear about probably have more in common with Louis vs Elmer Ray than Tyson v Tillis. And certainly they are no more than interesting side note, although i must say the series i am reading at the moment written by jeffries is in itself very informative and interesting.
     
    Boilermaker, Mar 17, 2011
    Boilermaker, Mar 17, 2011
    #22
  8. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yes, I do mention Jack Scales. Jeff did exhibition sparring with him. Just remember, fighters have a way of embellishing or forgetting many years later. I prefer what was said at the time.

    On August 15, 1899, Jeff boxed with Jack Scales, who put up a creditable showing. The London Sporting Life was quoted as saying,

    In his own particular class Jack Scales is a pretty useful customer…. The Londoner, a tall, wiry youth, treated the spar as purely exhibition and he twice led with taps of the lightest possible description. Jeffries paid little or no attention to his defence and by this means Scales was enabled to visit the face several times.
    Adopting more business-like tactics, the champion gave glimpses of the lightning left hand work for which he has achieved so much distinction in his own country. This is about the first occasion he has assumed this style of work since his sojourn in this country, and his efficiency is most marked. Scales throughout the second round was of course nonplussed, but his sharp movements brought to light Jeffries’s acknowledged cleverness.
     
    apollack, Mar 17, 2011
    apollack, Mar 17, 2011
    #23
  9. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Fair points of course, although i must say that in this series, Jeffries seems to have been more frank and candid than any ex fighter i remember.

    His comments on some of these things may even settle some Mendoza McVey feuds, particularly relating to the condition of Peter Jackson and possibly the first Corbett fight and many other things. To be honest, i cant wait to hear his comments on Johnson Jeffries and other things.

    Incidentally, according to Jeffries, he fought 30 to 40 men in France under a John L sullivan style challenge of stay 4 rounds to get the money, and none of these were really in his class. The circumstances it mentions of him winning the "French Title" by default really are also explained in abelievable way, i think.

    http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/art...y=1936|||todd=31|||frommm=01|||sortby=dateAsc
     
    Boilermaker, Mar 17, 2011
    Boilermaker, Mar 17, 2011
    #24
  10. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Again, my book quotes what Jeff said at the time, as well as what newspapers said at the time. I also use Jeff's autobio written in 1910, as well as Two Fisted Jeff, written in 1929. But mostly I use the next day local primary sources, because they are not as affected by fading memory, and even then you'll often have three local sources give three different angles. I lay it all out there and allow the reader to decide.

    I extensively discuss what was said about Peter Jackson before, during, and after the Jeffries bout. pages 99-110. The pros and the cons are all there. The newspapers simultaneously hyped the fight, while also questioning its significance given Jackson's years of inactivity. The papers went back and forth. It is all there. Even Jeff's later comments about it.
     
    apollack, Mar 17, 2011
    apollack, Mar 17, 2011
    #25
  11. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    You are correct to quote contemporary newspaper comments, although there is also a danger with these. Much of what is said in newspapers at any time is done to hype fights. For example, there is no way Tyson ever really wanted to eat Lennox Lewis' kids. As good as contemporary news articles are, there is also a place for the recollections of fighters as well. And quite often time will take away agendas. And as i said, to me at least, Jeffries seems to have been honest and believable. Obviously the truth may lie somewhere between the two versions.

    REgarding Peter Jackson, and for what it is worth, for those who didnt read what i posted, jeffries said basically that he had went into the fight seeing peter as an All time great and expecting a challenge but from the first punch it was obvious that it was not the real Peter Jackson and he didnt consider that his name should be considered by anyone to be on his record.
     
    Boilermaker, Mar 17, 2011
    Boilermaker, Mar 17, 2011
    #26
  12. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yes, Jeff recognized that Peter was a mere shell of himself. What was impressive, though, was how quickly he took out a formerly great fighter known for his boxing skill. Even those who thought Jeff would win thought he would take many more rounds to do it.
     
    apollack, Mar 17, 2011
    apollack, Mar 17, 2011
    #27
  13. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/art...y=1936|||todd=31|||frommm=01|||sortby=dateAsc

    Here is the last of the series i was reading (i probably missed out on posting one or two articles on the way through). It isnt really to do with missing fights, but Jeffries opinion on the Johnson fight is interesting. For the record, i think that the poisoning symptoms Jeffries explains and lack of memory are perfectly consistent with concussion injuries.
     
    Boilermaker, Mar 17, 2011
    Boilermaker, Mar 17, 2011
    #28
  14. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    He wasn't the first to claim after losing a fight that he was doped. When Bob Fitzsimmons began claiming that he was doped after the first Jeffries fight, Jeff and his manager said that yes Bob was doped, doped by Jeff's fists landing on his head.
     
    apollack, Mar 17, 2011
    apollack, Mar 17, 2011
    #29
  15. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I am not sure how accurate this article is, but it seems to mostly check out with boxrec from what i have looked at. It is just a list of fights,But here is a possible unrecorded fight in paris.

    firstly, scroll down to

    Guydo. It says here that he is an italian boxer who died from injuries in a fight with Jim Jeffries on March 11, 1900. It isnot known that Jeffries went to Paris at that time (at least not by me) but he also didnt have any fights on this date either, so it is not totally improbably. Seems a little strange that we didnt hear more of it if true though.
     
    Boilermaker, Dec 7, 2011
    Boilermaker, Dec 7, 2011
    #30
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