Jim Jeffries v Rocky Marciano 15rds

If those two are made to fight at MW I favour Hagler obviously.

But if they're allowed to come in over 175 and we say Hagler still has to come in aa 170, then he's giving away a lot of weight.

Philly had the kind of style where he could run from him all night and do it on points, especially when he's gonna be the bigger and quicker man.

Burns would be hitting him with hard counters and if he's gonna be the bigger man come fight night those counters are gonna be hurting Hagler hard.

Of the two I'd say Hagler has more chance against Burns, but the heavier Burns gets the less that chance is.

 

Read the fight report and pay attention to the blows landed on both sides. This was an action fight. McCoy was always a actor. He very well could have been trying to say I didn't lose, I was supposed to. Not buying it. Guys do funny things when they are out. See Jack Johnson famous arms over his head reflex.

 

A fight between 2 overrated joke club fighters. Jim Jeffries a guy who fought doing a era where the averaged heavyweight was 100 pounds. Nobody had skills against Rocky Marciano a unskilled club fighter who fought in a era where the average heavyweight was 180 pounds. Marciano also fought in a era where the Italian Mafia controlled boxing and controlled Marciano's career. Marciano's best wins were against 4 old men. Marciano was beating by D level 180 pound fighter Roland LaStarza and 170 pound tomato can Ted Lowry beat the tar out of him and almost knocked him out.

Jim Jeffries is so bad that maybe Marciano could actually finally win a fantasy bout.

 

So the average heavyweight in Jeffries era weighed less than 8 stone?!?
I can only assume the whole post is a wind up.

 

I do. Your case would be much more convincing if Jeff were actually fighting guys in a higher weight class than Marciano's opponents. But the opposite is more true.

It is like saying a light-heavyweight should beat a middle if everything is equal.

But in this case it like the light-heavyweight champ won his title beating a welter and never defeated a top light-heavyweight, or even a middle who was better than his welter victim. His middle opponent on the other hand has actually beaten better middles and even better light-heavies.

For me, this clouds the advantage we credit to size. (this is all guesswork, after all). We have a big man who built his record and rep beating men smaller on the average than his much smaller opponent built his record on, and the edges in record actually go to the much smaller man.

Jeff by no means in size (at 6' & 206 to about 220) is anything like modern super-heavies on the whole. All the consensus champs of the 21st century--Lewis, Wlad, Vitali, Fury, Wilder, Joshua--are from 6' 5" to 6' 9" and except perhaps for Wilder, much heavier. Even more critically, they are fighting guys much closer to their own size than Jeff did.

Jeff was 206 for Fitz in 1899 with Fitz at 167. An opponent giving away that percentage of body weight against the 184 lb. Marciano would weigh 149! How much credit would we give Marciano as a heavyweight for beating Kid Gavilan? If that was his best win would we assume he could handle a top light-heavyweight?

*by the way, a 175 lb. man with the same percentage of weight pull as Jeff had with Fitz would be fighting a 142 lb. man.

 

"Dempsey beat Willard and Firpo . . . so I'd be confident picking him in this fight."

I would consider the 1951 Louis the favorite over either the 1919 Willard (who had laid off three years and was visibly out of shape) or the crude Firpo. For me, suddenly switching over to giving Dempsey all this credit seems inconsistent and undercuts the whole size argument. There is no evidence that size bothered Marciano any more than it bothered Dempsey. Marciano KO'd all five 210 lb. plus fighters he was in against in a total of 17 rounds.

 

"Jeffries . . . was never really beaten."

????

I think you mean in his prime.

*I just re-watched the Johnson fight. The problem with it is not that Jeff lost, very understandable after a six year layoff, but that he looks so bad. It is an amazingly poor performance off what film exists, other than perhaps Jeff showing the ability to take it.

In fairness to Jeff, I think all the pre-1960 champions would have lost to Johnson if they had to overcome a similar layoff.

Watching that film, though, it certainly raises grave doubts for me as to Jeff being able to handle Johnson if he had been willing to match him in 1904 when Johnson was the top contender.

 

I agree with this.

180 to 190 lb fighters beating guys from 210 to 220 or even larger was the norm over the decades. As a percentage of body weight this would be like a lightweight beating middleweights. There is almost no example of that. There is no doubt that the parameters of the unlimited division has moved up greatly in the last half-century of so. There are a lot more good big men and they are a lot better. It is really impossible to compare the old days of the 1960's and earlier period to the modern boxing world.

 

The second paragraph sums it up perfectly for me. A good big un beats a good little un.

For the record this isn't anything to do with a question of Marciano's ability, I think he's an absolute legend.

It is just apparent that I rate Jeffries more than you do. For me I class Jeffries as a superior version of Ruiz. I see him as a world class HW who would hold his own in any era. Not necessarily be a champion in any era, but I've no doubt he'd be a solid top 5 type.

I don't class Jeffries as p4p superior to Rocky, but I think his extra 30 pounds is enough to overcome that skill disparity.

Atleast now we know where the difference of opinion is here, it's how good we rate Jeffries. For the record he doesn't actually sit inside my top 100 fighters whereas Marciano is inside my top 48 as of today. Jeffries doesn't actually even sit inside my top 10 HW fighters neither. If I was to rank below top ten I imagine Jeffries would wind up somewhere near Norton and Baer. The kind of fighter that was very good. And beating someone who's very good whilst giving away 30 pounds is a tough task for anyone.

Maybe Marciano would have proved it had their been big enough fighters in his era. He beat Vingo and Louis and Shkor. Would have been a huge favourite over Valdes as well. But my opinion of Marciano is he's an ATG cruiserweight fighter and I believe if he added a stone or so sensibly he could indeed be good enough to to win a one off fight against anyone out there. But a fighter like Rocky giving away 30 pounds, it's a tough ask.

If you're someone who thinks Old Louis is better than Jeffries, or indeed better than a lot of people then I can buy into the thought process. But I don't think Old Louis was as good as that. I think he earnt his ranking but in historical terms I think he's about as good as a fringe top ten contender.

The only way to convince me really is by convincing me how good Old Louis was. If I can believe he was as good as Jeffries or Norton etc then I can give Rocky some benefit of doubt as he was 20 pounds lighter that night.

 

Nothing sudden about it mate. I've always given Dempsey the benefit of doubt against bigger men.

 

I don't really class the fight against Johnson as significant h2h wise. Legacy wise it was huge. Fight of the century. But it tells us nothing about how good Jeffries was.

 

I would like to raise an issue with you. I just watched the "complete" surviving film of Johnson-Jeffries. Jeff doesn't show much of any kind of punches,

but what punch doesn't Johnson use on this film? He jabs, although not as often as a modern boxer would. He shows a straight right. He uses a left hook. He uppercuts with both hands.

You say they didn't use certain punches, but could you elaborate on which ones are missing from Johnson's repertoire?

*just an aside, Jeff in his own day was accused of being a one-handed fighter with a very limited right. Against Johnson, he shows nothing and rarely punches. Against Ruhlin he seems to be relying on left hooks, simply marching through Ruhlin. It appears off the poor film of the Sharkey bout that Jeff did occasionally throw a right to the body.

 

Not really. You can easily compare Robinson with say Leonard. In fact many do.

Same way you can compare Rocky with say Usyk.

I wouldn't compare Robinson to Spinks as the difference in weight is too much. And Robinson is, imo, the best boxer that ever laced them up.