Jim Jeffries vs John L. Sullivan

That is one way to look at it. My point is Sullivan pretty much failed to stop the best gloves fighters he faced from 1884-1887

Burke, McCaffrey, and Carfiff went the distance with Sullivan. Aside from Corbett, those were the best-gloved fighters Sullivan meet under Queensberry rules.

While Sullivan might have been past his best as early as 1884, failing to stop the above people makes me wonder how good of a gloved fighter he was.

While Sullivan did stop a very good, but Small Mitchell in 1883, he was also down in round one.

I do not think John L would defeat Jeffries. There is not enough on paper for John L to suggest John L was in the same league in terms of beating quality gloves fighters, and pretty much every historian felt Jeffries was better.

This is not to say that Sullivan would not put up a good effort. I think he would.

 

Fitz hit harder than Sullivan ? Everyone said so ? Where are your sources ? Are you just making this up? Joe Choynski , who fought both men, said Sullivan was by far the hardest hitter he ever faced.

 

Fitz had lethal power, and killed three men from boxing related injuries. Many of his knockouts were far more than traditional ten counts.

This is a solid source:

Nat Fleischer, founder of The Ring Magazine, regarded Fitzsimmons as the greatest pound for pound knockout puncher in boxing history. He also considered Fitz as the best-left hooker, and the best body puncher among heavyweight

is there a similar source for Sullivan?

Regarding the Choynski fight, it was an exhibition / sparring event where Joe suckered punched Bob in round 5. Bob got up, than had Choynski nearly out, but could not finish him before the 6 round was up.

 

Fleischer was not even born when Sullivan was in his prime. He would not know anything that anyone else looking at Sullivan's record wouldn't know.

Fitz may have been the greatest ever p4p puncher, but he is still thirty pounds lighter than Sullivan, a super-middle versus a big cruiser.

You mentioned earlier a few fights like Burke and McCaffrey with gloves, but Sullivan used gloves quite a bit in earlier fights and stopped lots of guys. Many of his fights were scheduled for only a few rounds. The fights with men like Burke and McCaffrey did not go that many rounds. Off Adam Pollack's research on Sullivan, he really did blow a lot of guys out early and those that lasted even a few rounds did so by runnning or stalling by taking deliberate knock or falldowns.

My take on Sullivan is that he appears to have had a much bigger punch than Jeffries and he had enough stamina to last over two hours in the hot Mississippi sun against Kilrain. All in all, not someone who anyone is going to have an easy time against, including Jeffries. I wonder if Jeff has the power to finish Sullivan. It is also not clear that Jeff had the superior stamina. Sullivan by ko after a very long and vicious fight or Sullivan by stoppage because Jeff has just suffered too much facial damage to go on.

 

I think Nat, who's life was boxing had access to first hand testimonials that you and I could only dream of. If he says Fitz was the best hitter he ever saw, maybe he is right. Or maybe Fitz is arguable with Dempsey, Louis, Marciano et al. Either way, if you respect a guy who was there, Fitz was a big hitter.

Since when does weight equate to power? Marciano and Dempsey were below 190, yet they hit much harder than Valuev or McCline who are over 270 pounds.

If Mitchell could put Sullivan down, in one round, Jeffires could hurt him too. In fact, Corbett thrashed the same Mitchell much better than Sullivan did. It’s true. Keep in mind Jeffires scored at least one knock down in all of his fights, save his come back fights. It is also to noteworty that Sullivan, who was living legend while Jeffries was champion, was astounded by Jeffries in the ring, and as an athelete.

Who did Sullivan really KO? Kilran, but after 75 rounds, it was more of an endurance contest than anything else. If Sullivan had huge KO power then how come, Slavin ( a man Sullivan should have fought but did not ) capped Kilrain in 9?

Like I said, Sullivan resume is a tad thin vs top-level glove fighters. Can you name me any glove fighters better than Burke, or McCaffrey whom Sullivan stopped? Big punchers almost always flatten C level fighters.

I think Sullivan’s legend is as big as Paul Bunyons! Yes-- He did a lot for the sport, but let us be objective here.

 

Mendoza, you are the first person I have ever heard of actually trying to make a case against Sullivan's power. Ever.

Read Adam's book on Sullivan which is filled with actual newspaper coverage from the day by people that saw Sullivan. These A vs B vs C arguments don't work in this sport especially when stretched and molded...

Sullivan by all accounts save your own was one of the greatest one punch ko artists of all time ...

 

He Grant

My main point was Fitz hit harder. I did not say Sullivan lacked power. Then the thread morphed into me proving it, so I examined it in the best way I know how.

In a comparison between the two there is no doubt Fitz Ko'd much better fighters, and Sullvian, at least on paper took the best fighters he fought the distance.

It has nothing to do with ABC. I know who Corbett, Sharkey, Maher, were. Fitz put them all down for the count. Sullivan failing to do the same vs fighters of lesser grade makes me wonder. If it wasn't his power, then perhaps it was lack of skills.

To be fair, boxing in Sullivan's day consisted of wrestling, throws downs, & rough mixing as much as punches.

I have not re-searched Sullvian on Pollack’s level, but I do find gaping holes in his Sullivan’s resume that cannot be explained solely from the color line. Had Sullivan meet and fought Slavin, Goddard, Jackson, Maher, or even someone like Mick Dooley, we would have a better idea of how good he was. Sullivan vs Slavin would have been HUGE. Editor of the Police Gazette, Rickard K. Fox gave Slavin his version of champion when John L Sullivan did not sign to meet him.

In fact, all the above names ( Jackson, Goddard, Maher, and Dooley ) were probably better than anyone Sullvian beat in the ring, though perhaps you could argue that Kilrain was close to Dooley or Goddard.

 

The more I learn about Jeffries the more I am convinced he was the greatest HW fighter in history. My sentimental choices are Sullivan and Johnson but my brain really says Jeffries -now barhanded that's another story...

 

Who did Sullivan ko? Who didn't he? He ko'd Paddy Ryan, Jimmy Elliott, Joe Goss, Herbert Slade, John Flood, and Charley Mitchell, as well as Jake Kilrain. These were considered more or less the best of the time. In the late eighties he may have begun to regress, but he was actually recognized as champion by many as early as 1880. The situation was as confused as today, with the added complication of two different rule sets, but Sullivan basically cleaned out the competition.

On Mitchell. Mitchell did score a disputed flash knockdown--Sullivan claimed he slipped--before getting beaten so badly the police intervened to save his life.

A washed up, blubbery Sullivan lasted 21 rounds against Corbett. I think a younger, fit Sullivan would be a stern test for Jeffries who, after all, could not knock out the weak jawed Choynski.

 

Jeffries had what, 6 or 7 recorded fights when he meet Choynski. Choynski was at his peak then. Still he had Choynski down 3 times. Choysnki had a glass jaw? Not exactly. Sure punchers ( Goodard whom Sullivan did not, and Maher whom Sullvian did not fight ) could stoped Choynski, but Choynski was only stopped 3 times in his first 55 fights.

Sullivan took Mitchell, who was not even in Choynski class 39 rounds in a draw. Choysnki could really move quickly and hit. Mitchell was a scrapper without such options.

If you read my post, Sullvian did not come close to facing the best out there in the mid to late 1880's.

I also think you must admit that Sullvian who was not 30 until 1888 really did not impress vs the best gloved fighters. I don't know much about Ryan, Ellliot, or Goss. It seems Ryan lost quite a bit. Goss who was about 150 pounds lost or drew quite a bit too. Ditto the same for Elliot in his known fights. None of these guys were Jim Mace, that much is for sure.

Also, might Sullivan had had a big age advantage in these fight? Yep. Look up the birth dates if you wish or take my word for it.

 

I don't know enough about the "best out there" in the 1880's to judge if Sullivan met them. Peter Jackson and Frank Slavin both emerged in the late 1880's or early 1890's as top contenders. Jake Kilrain was an undefeated contender and considered the best out there when he fought Sullivan. Kilrain was recognized as champion by the Police Gazette.
After 1889 and the Kilrain fight, Sullivan didn't fight anyone until Corbett in 1892, but he was already 31, two years older than Jeff when Jeff won his last fight and three years older than Jeff when Jeff beat the aging Corbett. Sullivan had won recognition as champion in some circles as early as 1880. Basically, he was more successful at an early age than Jeffries and won to a later age. His lone defeat came when he was old and fat. He reigned as champion longer.
I admit that I know little about Sullivan's era other than what I can gleam from Adam Pollock's biography.

I am not being sarcastic or critical about wondering who were the "best out there" that Sullivan did not fight in the mid-eighties. I would like any info I can get about an era I know little about.

About Sullivan's opponents, it is fair to focus on some like Goss and Elliott being older and we have only spotty info on their records to judge. Off Pollack's research, Elliott was 37 in 1882 and he had been the American champion and had also beaten Tom Allen, at the time the British champion. His career was interrupted by a nine year jail term for attempted murder, but he came into the Sullivan fight off an impressive victory over Dick Eagan.
Also, although Sullivan fought some small men such as Mitchell, many of his opponents were traditional heavyweights. Elliott was 6'1" and 185. Paddy Ryan was 6' 2 1/2" and 193 for Sullivan according to the New Orleans Picayune. The New York Herald listed Herbert Slade as 6' 2" and 220 lbs. Jake Kilrain was 5' 10 1/2" and 195 for Sullivan. Sullivan certainly beat men in their primes and men who were as large or even larger than he was.

Jem Mace, by the way, was born in 1831 and stopped being a major active force in boxing about 1871. He was not in Sullivan's era and other than fights with Goss in the early sixties, did not fight Sullivan's opponents, except for a bizarre comeback defeat to Mitchell in 1890 when Mace was 59.

 

"Since when does weight equate to power? Marciano and Dempsey were under 190, yet they hit much harder than Valuev or McCline who are over 270 pounds."

I agree, but did you actually post this? Did you actually post this?

 

Mendoza, while I have a different opinion, I respect that you conduct yourself like a gentleman and articulate your argument. I can agree to disagree.

 

How did the Mitchell vs Mace fight go?

 

The fight was stopped when the police intervened with Mitchell ahead. It went four rounds and earned Mitchell the championship of England, although Mace apparently hadn't been an active fighter for decades.