Jim Jeffries vs Tony Tubbs.

There are many here who can't differentiate a legacy that was built in a long ago era, with the nuances of a head to head matchup... Yeah, being the HW champ with a 19-0 record in 1905 was fantastic.. But when you're almost exclusively fighting men who's size ranged from middleweight to lightheavyweight, drawing color lines, and still coming within an inch of losing, it doesn't exactly bode well when getting in the ring with someone who fought 80+ years later where the rules have changed drastically.

 

Tubbs would be the largest world class fighter that Rocky Marciano had ever faced, but that dosn't mean that he should be automaticaly favoured over him. Jeffries didn't fight smaller opponents because nothing else was available, he fought them because they beat all the bigger fighters.

Somtimes I think that this board is obsessed with size to the point of mental illness. If a champions opponents were big on average, it is automaticaly judged in favour of his power, durability, and quality of opposition. This is a misguided assumtion. A better measure of those variables, would respectivley be beating the hardest punching, most durable, and best opponents around. They usualy wont be the biggest.

People are right to criticise Jeffries for drawing the colour line, but not for the size/age of his opponents.

 

This is fair to say if we were discussing a better modern fighter than Tony Tubbs.

 

well said!:good

 

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/11010342?searchTerm=bill farnan&searchLimits=

here is a little piece with a few of Farnans KOs described.

ANd this one has a little bit of Jackson Farnan, and is off topic a bit, but it some great little discussions about some of the top fighters of a slighly later time, hopefull y some will like it. Note particularly that Fitzimmons won the world middleweight title, but was never able to win the Australian title. This shows just how tough the local australian scene was. And this is part of the reason why i think Farnan deserves to make the list.



http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/38900013?searchTerm=bill farnan&searchLimits=

 

The quote you responded to came from my comment about Jeffries vs Cooney - a fight that I think could be a problem for Jeffries.

 

Has it ever occured to you that Cooney might just get beaten down brutaly?

He would find himself up against a world class fighter.

The kind he always lost to.

 

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18934015?searchTerm=bill farnan&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc

Jackson is often said to be green and undernourished for this early fight. There is no doubt that he probably did improve, but I think this is blown out of proportion. As seen here, Jackson had a decent camp and time to train.


And here is a good description of the farnan lees fight. I must say, that Matt raises a very interesting point though about Lees and his defeat of Farnan. While i think that age (and i presume his recorded lack of funds suggests drink might have also been a problem) is probably a telling factor, Lees was very dominant until finally losing to Jackson and from there, he could not maintain his best form, bt i wonder whether Tom Lees might sneak into the list.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/62017472?searchTerm=bill farnan&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc

 

Jeffries's superior stamina would prevail here

 

As McVey would say, " assuming Jeffries' facial tissue held up." The man had his nose broken on 3 occasions, and suffered some broken ribs - all against much smaller men or ones who were past prime. His defense was questionable and wasn't exactly a fast starter, as he preferred to use his size and strength to wear down his prey - two luxuries he wouldn't have against Cooney..

 

Most fighters are fighting at the wrong weight now. ground has been lost while fighters experiment with their B.M.I and protein shakes. Therefore today’s cruiserweights simply would not be 200lb 30 years ago. They would be 169-175lb.

In an age where a super middleweight is really a cruiserweight who can cheat the scales you would have to say the sport suffers

with 6oz old gloves 180 -190lb heavyweights could compete with punching power against giants. They could cut up a big guy with their higher work rate.

It used to be that the 180-200lb guy could set a pace the giant couldn’t live with, cut him up with small gloves and stop him but with 10oz gloves they have to hit the giant that many more times to cut him down and today that 200pounder weighs 235lb so the pace he can set is negligible to that of the 260lb giant.


RING MAGAZINE FROM 1933 QUOTED
The big vs, bigger debate is not new to boxing. It’s been around as long as fist’s themselves. in fact the November 1933 issue of “The Ring” contained an article titled “Giants Not So Hot.” The ring careers of 20 boxers who weighed between 220 and 300 pounds were studied. among the studies were the knockouts of two 300 boxers by light heavyweight champions Bob Fitsimmons and Kid McKoy in the early 1900's. The article said,” The three hundred pounds each of the big men carried meant nothing against the speed and accuracy and power of these extraordinary smaller fellows.”

 

because they were big and neutralised one another to the extent nobody stood out?

Mike spinks naturaly not that big, beat larry holmes around this time.

 

This is both speculative and in some ways incorrect. People in general are larger today even without sports supplements or performance enhancers.. And saying that "most" fighters are at the wrong weight today, is a blanket statement.

Heavyweights from the 70's onward are generally more skilled, athletic and faster than on avarage decades earlier.... Look at Klitschko, Lewis, Bowe and Holmes.

So you found an article talking about how two light heavyweights knocked out a couple of 300 lb whales... So what? Did it tell you WHO these 300 pounders were, what kind of shape they were in at that weight, what their ring experience was, etc.. etc? Such an article is so limited in information, I don't know if I'd even bother posting it... A better way to do this, is to look at how no man under 200 lbs has won the HW title or even any version of it in the past 30+ years, with exception of Michael Spinks who was on the border 199, and facing an aged champion..