Jimmy bivins and Lloyd Marshall just as great if not greater than Charly Burley?

Charlie Burley said,
"The greatest fighter I ever met?? Lloyd Marshall! knocked me down and beat me good" this was in Ring Mag interview by Ron Fried ,Author of Corner Men.

 

Yes, they were, especially Bivins, who should have gotten that title shot.

 

Jimmy Bivins who I saw at MSG fighting Melio Bettina to a draw , was to me a modern
day version of Sam Langford.. Bivins was built somewhat like Sam,minus the punching
power of Langford...He was an all around top fighter who was usually smaller than his
opponents...Bivins would tackle anyone in the golden age of the 1940s...
in those competitive days Bivins and others like Charles, Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall.
and others fought the best contenders often, which sharpened their skills, thus
making the 1940s fighters with a few exceptions , far superior to todays crowd...
Yes practice makes perfect, holds true...

 

No, they were not. Check out the records of the Row members in their series with one another. Bivins and especially Marshall come out among the worst, and even moreso when you throw in the names of Charles and Moore. Neither man even broke the .500 mark, whereas Burley came out quite clearly the best. And given the accounts of him as a fighter (they mostly all said he was the best of the bunch)/his disadvantage in size by comparison I think he was clearly the top dog even despite a few losses (it's not like you can't say the same for the others), that is if you had to choose one guy out of the lot. Some good competition in guys like Williams and Booker, though.

 

Yep, because the row were the only good fighters around and the only ones that count. :good


IMO Burley is quite a bit overrated, at least over here, a special fighter and no doubt an atg but some have him Top10 p4p ...

I don´t think there is much between Williams, Masrhall, Bivins and Burley. You can rank them in any order more or less as long as you have them close.

 

No, but seeing as how we're kind of, ya know, comparing Row members to one another, I figure it would be a just point to make.

 

Well, it would have been valid if you only would have included the three guys the TS asked about. We are comparing those three, so the others don´t matter anymore as the non-row-member of the time.

 

They were all fighters of a similar class lumped together. I think it's more than fitting to take into account how they fared against each other, along with some of the other fighters that they shared as common opponents. In that respect, I think Burley clearly fared the best, and if the accounts of the day are to be taken seriously(why wouldn't they be?) I think it only strengthens his case further. His consistency also plays a major role in how I rate him in comparison to many of the other Row Members.

 

A right good post from a good right hand Bivins was class personified - men don't come any more gentle than him - I just burn inside for what happened to him during his dark periods - why oh why did something like that have to happen to an awesome guy like that?? But even still he had the mental toughness to pull through and at the same time rise above it and still attempt to understand what drove the evil...you know whats...to do it - he is a legend - guys like that should be absolutely the most famous guys in the world - they should be doing studio stuff and ringside stuff at the big fights - everyone should know him - a true hero and an example of everything that is great about boxing and fighters in general

 

Marshall also had a lot of high praise of contemporary writers and fighters, especially in Europe.

When they fought they were both Middleweights really.

Right OK.

Jimmy Bivens

Here is Biven's record against Row members

Burley W10
Charles W10, LKO4, L10,L10
Marshall KO13
Moore KO6, LTKO9, L10, LKO8, LTKO9

So that is a 4-7 record but it should be noted he beat every member of the Row he faced, and also did not lose to a member of the Row until after 1945, where it could be stated he was past his prime.

Here is his list of other opponents, who are generally considered the best of the era.

Christoforidis W10,L10,W15
Teddy Yarosz W10
Sheppard W10, W10
Bettina L10, W10, D10
Soose W10
Lesenivich W10
Maxim W10
Savold W10
Maurello W10

This is taking into account until 1945, my point for the end of Biven's peak.

His record is 11-2-1

And taking into account Row fighters fought before 1945 he would be.

15-2-1 (going 4-0 against other members of the Row)

So from 1940, literally from turning pro, till 1945 we have the most dominant 5 year span of any Row member , and this is across 3 weight divisions - Middle, Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight. Surely that is very impressive?

This is taking away Biven's past prime work where there are a lot of positives, but a few more negatives. But generally some of that past prime work is very impressive.


Charley Burley

Record vs Row members

Williams L15, W10, W10, TKO9, L15, NC10, L12
Bivins L10
Charles L10, L10
Marshall L10
Cocoa Kid W15, D10
Moore W10

That is a record of 5-7-1-1

Although Burley was mainly a Welterweight and most of these bouts were at Middleweight he could not quite break even with the members of the Row and was beaten decisively by Bivins and Charles, and even Marshall and failed to win one bout against them.

He also tied with Williams, but the NC was very contested at the time. And I will assume he got the better of Williams in their rivalry, for arguments sake.

Against opponents of the era. For this I will assume his prime years and use 1938-1945, which whilst being a longer period than Bivins he is much more inconsistent and less dominant IMO.

Zivic L10, W10, W10
Soose W10
Abrahms D10
Shorty Houge KO10
Big Boy Houge TKO6
Chase W10, KO9, TKO12
Wade W10, W10, W10
Smith W10

I would say he entered his prime when he beat Zivic and his career started to tail off in 1945, although arguably 1944 was his best year in the ring.

So that is a record of 12-1-1. That is very impressive and is over 2 weight divisions.

Taking into accounts fights with the Row in that period he drops to 17-8-2-1. Still very impressive IMO. But he failed to establish dominance against the best fighters he faced in his peak. Always showing that he was not 'per se' the best of that particular time at a certain weight class.

However at Welterweight he was very dominant and ruled that IMO. At Middleweight moving up his form was a bit patchy but his lack of size can compensate to an extent for this.

Compared to Bivins. I feel that Bivins had the more dominance over the three weight classes he competed in during his prime but Burley had the extra longevity of his dominant spell and was more dominant at Welterweight than Bivin's was at any weight. Although as Burley moved to Middleweight he could be bested whereas in Bivins prime he never really was truly bested.

I should say going on footage and from reports Burley is the better fighter, than Bivins.


Lloyd Marshall

Record vs Row members

Burley W10
Charles KO8, LKO6, LKO2
Bivins LKO13
Williams L10, W10, L10
Booker L10
Moore L10, LKO10

Record of 3-8.

Not the best record against other members of the Row but his wins over Burley and Charles are big IMO, not enough to compensate for the other defeats but they are big wins.

Out of all the Row members I would say Marshall probably has some of the best wins on his record but his inconsistency lets him down IMO. For the purpose of this we will assume his peak is 1938-1944, roughly the same as Bivins and Burley also.

record against other top fighters

Overlin W10
Garcia L10, LKO5
Risko KO5
Yarosz W10, L10
Brouilliard W10
Shorty Houge L10, W10
Christiforidis W10
Sheppard W10
Chase D15, L15, W10
Lamotta W10
Maxim W10

That is a record of 10-5-1

Combined with his Row record, 13-13-1. Not particularly cheerful.

Although the win over Lamotta is a big win as is Yarosz, Maxim and Chase, who incidentally all lost to other Row members.

I would say going by records, despite some top wins Marshall is probably the weakest of the Row members going purely on resume, but his talent is undeniable and he was a very good fighter.


Eddie Booker

Unfortunately Bookers career was cut prematurely. But he did pack some quality into his resume. In terms of longevity and dominance he can't quite touch the other 'Murderer's' because of his lack of quantity but for his quality in the wins he does have, he is up there.

Row record

Williams D6, L12, W10
Cocoa Kid L8
Moore D10, D10, KO8
Marshall W10

Overall, 3-2-3.

Only losing, unavenged to Kid and breaking even with Williams. However for the purpose here going by their primes I would say Bookers prime is from 1941-1944. So that would discount the draw with Williams and the loss to Cocoa Kid. So the record would stand 3-1-2, which is impressive. However, Williams was in his prime for the 6 round draw and Booker, just ahead of his prime so it is a good result.

In other top fighters, Booker lacks the quantity drastically IMO.

Shorty Houge D10, W10, L10, KO8
Jannazzo W10
Big Boy Houge KO3
Chase L15
Mathews KO5

That is a record of 5-2-1, combined with Row record this equals 8-3-3, which again is very good.

I do think this lack of quantity deny s him the chance to get the marks in dominance or longevity the other members score, oh so, highly in. So straight off the bat, Booker is at a big disadvantage IMO. However the wins he does have are very good and he lacks the inconsistency that plagued most of the other members, with the only fighter really getting the better of him, the fabulous Jack Chase, and there is no shame their.


Holman Williams

This one will be fun.

Row record

Cocoa Kid L10,L10,L10,W10,L15,L15,D10,W12,L15,L10,L12,L10,W12
Booker D6, W10, L10
Burley W15,L10,LKO9,W15,NC10,W12
Marshall W10, L10, W10
Moore W10, LKO11

10-14-2-1

By far the most experienced of the Row, vs other Row members and actually against any top fighters when it comes to that. The record is deceiving IMO as most of the losses come vs Burley and Kid who had bad styles for Williams and they fought so often, and in the case with Kid, i think at least 3 of Cocoa's wins were when Williams was green.

But Williams beat every Row member he faced, but only managed to show true superiority to Marshall who he beat 2-1.

However it is against other top fighters that Williams stands out with his longevity, dominance and really good wins. I will say his prime is from 1937-1945, again roughly the same time period as everyone else. So his Row record from '37-45 is 10-11-2-1.

Jannazzo D10, W10, L10
Belloise W10
Chase W10,W12,W15,W12
Wade W10
Lytell D10, W10

That's a record of 8-1-2. With his row record it is 18-12-4-1.

The thing that stands out to me is the complete domination of Jack Chase, no one dominated Chase in a series like that. This dominance by Williams was asserted over Welterweight and Middleweight although his best work was done at Welterweight (like Burley), he was more consistent at Middleweight than Burley though IMO.

I do think that Williams was a lesser fighter than Burley but his record is as good, if not better than Burley's. As it showed he did have superiors in Burley and Kid but everyone else seemed to be below him, s it would lead you to believe Burley was one of the premier boxers in the sport, with Williams of a tier just slightly below him.

I ain't touching Cocoa Kid with a barge pole. Also I will leave out Moore and Charles as they peaked later and I think it is best to discuss the Row years of 1937-1945.

Also I only focussed on Prime results so, a lot of work is missing in some fighters, which isnt ideal. But I dont have the time to do it.

Looking at evrything considered I would rank these guys.

1. Bivins
2. Burley
3. Williams
4. Booker
5. Marshall.

 

Well done, Greg. Unfortunately you have to do the same thing for every Row member if you're making a prime for prime comparison like that.

 

Well wait around El Buija. They will be done soon.

Who you wanting to be included. Williams, Burley, Cocoa, Marshall, Charles and Moore?

 

anyone got any opinions on this?

 

Annoying as **** spent about 2 hours this morning on this thread and then it dies.