Jimmy Ellis of the Bonavena fight vs. 1970 Frazier

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by William Walker, Aug 11, 2020.


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  1. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    How so? Valdez fought absolutely nothing like Ellis and while Briscoe was a come forward fighter his style likewise was nothing really like Fraziers. He marched forward straight up behind a ramrod jab, had nowhere near the head movement of Frazier and relied equally on his right hand. Frazier accentuated his lack of height by fighting out of a crouch with a bob and weave style in order to work in close and wing away with left hooks. His jab and right hand were minimalist and used to set up the hook. Ellis was a poor mans Ali who relied on footwork and his jab to set up sneak right hands. Valdez was a boxer puncher who planted his feet and worked in tight circles on defense or patiently stalked his man going forward. He was much less of a mover, much more aggressive and physical than Ellis and committed much more often. I dont see the comparison.
     
    klompton2, Aug 12, 2020
    klompton2, Aug 12, 2020
    #31
  2. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    How can you get a busted nose from Floyd Patterson, not fight 1. 5 years, and then come back, with no tune-ups of any kind and fight Joe Frazier, the hottest heavyweight in the world? Ellis may have been got in shape and trained, but he was NOT prepared for a fight with Frazier.
     
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    #32
  3. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I'm not saying Valdez/ Ellis and Briscoe/ Frazier were EXACTLY the same, because that would be a lie. But I do think they had a lot of similar things about them. I agree with you about Frazier and Briscoe, and I was saying that they were essentially the same style-wise because they were both powerful, slow starters, with high stamina and durability and liked to work the body. Ellis and Valdez are more different than Frazier and Briscoe, but I thought Valdez was a fairly good boxer as well. Now that I think of it, Monzon vs. Briscoe would be more similar in terms of styles to Frazier-Ellis.
     
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    #33
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  4. The Morlocks

    The Morlocks Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Called training camp and Jimmy Ellis aint ever going past 4 with a primetime Frazier. Are you nuts? Or jus applying to the Revisionists Historical Society?
     
    The Morlocks, Aug 12, 2020
    The Morlocks, Aug 12, 2020
    #34
  5. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    No.
    [/QUOTE]Or jus applying to the Revisionists Historical Society?[/QUOTE]
    I have revised my opinion somewhat. I said Ellis would last 15 initially. Now I think Ellis doesn't make it to the double digits.
     
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
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  6. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Or jus applying to the Revisionists Historical Society?[/QUOTE]
    I have revised my opinion somewhat. I said Ellis would last 15 initially. Now I think Ellis doesn't make it to the double digits.[/QUOTE]
    I just think Ellis is tough enough to make it farther than 4 if he was at his best.
     
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    #36
  7. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I guess Valdez was a stalker, but he did have good hand speed, jab, and was good at making a fighter miss his shots. All qualities of a good boxer imo.
     
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    #37
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  8. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Now Deceased 2/4/25 Full Member

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    It still has nothing to do with this already fought match up, I know that you wish that Ellis had won, but dreams like this do not ever come true my friend. Even if you were to ask for this wish from a genie. These two were not Briscoe vs Valdes, no trilogies, it is like watching reruns of an old tv program.
     
    Richard M Murrieta, Aug 12, 2020
    Richard M Murrieta, Aug 12, 2020
    #38
    William Walker likes this.
  9. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I was only trying to bring up what I thought was a similar styled-matchup, only to start a new argument in that department. Contrary to what you think though, I don't wish Ellis had won, and there's no way he could ever beat Frazier, even on his best night. Ellis's style was made for losing to Frazier. I do think he could give Joe a tougher fight than most of you guys are giving him credit for though.
     
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
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  10. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Hell, style-wise Ellis was born to lose to Bonavena, and looked what happened. He was born to lose to Quarry too, and Chuvalo. Frazier, Bonavena, Quarry, and Chuvalo, thought all quite different, were all pressure fighters, which is what we would expect Ellis to lose to, and he beat three of them.
     
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    #40
  11. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Now Deceased 2/4/25 Full Member

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    But Joe Frazier is not Bonavena or Quarry, or even Chuvalo. Joe was better.
     
    Richard M Murrieta, Aug 12, 2020
    Richard M Murrieta, Aug 12, 2020
    #41
    William Walker likes this.
  12. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I agree completely. But if Ellis can whip them, can't he lose a UD to Joe Frazier?
     
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    #42
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  13. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Im also not convinced the layoff somehow hurt Ellis. Its not like he was inactive. He had been in training consistently due to scheduled fights that fell through and he was also taking part in public exhibitions as champ. He didnt just sit on the couch.
     
    klompton2, Aug 12, 2020
    klompton2, Aug 12, 2020
    #43
    William Walker likes this.
  14. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I'm sure he did train and spar, but that only gets you so far.
     
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    #44
  15. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Since Ellis did have a layoff that lasted a year-and-a-half, we cannot accurately judge how much different the fight would have been, or if it would have played out the exact way it did even with a peak Ellis. Anything now is pure speculation, coming from either side of the road.
     
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    William Walker, Aug 12, 2020
    #45
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