Jimmy Wilde's lack of title defences

indeed what a wanker

 

Are you DINAMITA's bum chum ?

 

Lets not start on here lads Christ.

 

Well said :good, I never swear or am nasty to anybody on these forums, but if people swear or are nasty to me, I will give it back.
DINAMITA did both those things when I joined ESB and I gave it back to him, Fleaman properbly does not know that, he thinks that I am driving DINAMITA away and he is being rude to me, he will also have it back as bullies can not be tollerated.
I respect all posters and realise that particularly on the classic forum people want to talk boxing, I will not initiate any problems but I will not take any ****, lets hope that DINAMITA and Fleaman dont look to cause any problems.

 

:good

 

he hopes to get it out on the Anniversery of the 100th year since Wildes pro debut which is september next year if i remember right.

i emailed him and heres what he said

Wilde's first claim to the world title came with his defeat of Joe Symonds in Feb 1914. It was at stake again in June when he beat Tancy Lee, in July when he beat Johnny Hughes and was finally recognised (almost) universally on Dec 18 1916 when he beat Young Zulu Kid at Holborn Stadium. The match against George Clark at the NSC in March 1917 was important as it was when Wilde won the Lonsdale belt outright, but was also billed as a 'World' title fight, as was his belt defence against Dick Heasman in April 1918 at the same venue. The only other occasions when the title was reputed to be at stake were during his American tour in 1919/1920 and there is some dispute over which were for the title and which were not. The March fight against Frankie Mason was billed as a title fight even though the contracts called for both men to weigh inside 108 (the fly limit being 112). The 2 fights against Battling Murray were also billed as title fights despite them being over shorter distances (8 rounds), as was the second fight against Patsy Wallace even though the stipulated weight was 116lbs. So take your pick, ha ha !!! Obviously the last defence was against Pancho Villa in 1923.

The reason that Wilde defended so few times considering the number of fights he had, was mainly due to a combination of the weight of his opponents and a case of going where the money was. He regularly fought guys up to and including featherweight (eg. Joe Conn) and many of his bouts were billed as bantamweight contests. He also retired after the American tour, but was lured out of retirement 6 months later by the promise of a large purse to fight Pete Herman (and we all know what happened there!!!). He then retired again and remained retired (except for some exhibition stuff) until June 1923 when he was offered the unheard of sum of $50,000 (£13,000) to fight Villa. It is unclear what his motives were for taking the fight, but there is a rumour that he was in financial trouble after some business investments went wrong. Either way that sort of money in the 1920s was a hell of a tempter. Remember in those days the 'title' was not controlled as rigidly as it is today with people like Tex Rickard billing fights as title fights to drag more punters in. The same sort of things happened with the Heavyweight champions. As soon as they were called world champion they often did not defend the title for years, prefering instead to use the title as a money spinner in other ways (on the stage etc).... just look at how many defences Dempsey made in all of the time he was champion!!!

Much of this information came from a section in one of the BBBC yearbooks in an article called 'The Championship History of the Paperweight and Flyweight Classes' by Barry Hugman and Harold Alderman, unfortunately I can't remember which edition it was in ??!!!!

 

yeh that would be interesting too McGrain

my freind (if he has) will be sending me some newspaper clips of them American fights that were not sure if they was world ttile bouts or not so possibly in them it might mention something.

Although to be fair to Wilde he did defend or at least meet contenders fairly regualry before 1920 (when he retired) as you have to take into account that minor distraction to Wilde which was the First World War

 

I wonder how much of an obstacle the expense/ trouble of cross-Atlantic travel was in those days considering how little a Flyweight title challenger would probably earn?

 

well Gaz Jimmy actually did a tour of America where he stayed and fought there for a while it was between 1919 and 1920 xso he fought the best of America then.

 

Yes I know Greg, I HAVE been reading the posts.

I wasn't really talking about who he did or didn't fight, I meant how big an issue was it generally thoughout his career and how it would affect challengers coming over to fight Wilde.

 

ok got you, its you and your scouse ways again.

It musta been an issue obviously but from what i can gather fighters tended to go on tours of certain places for a few months at a time so probabaly the best Flyweights from the States took a tour in Europe and Britain and the best Europeans would take tours in America.

 

Jimmy Wilde fought the likes of Tancy Lee, Joe Symonds, Sid Smith, Young Zulu Kid and Pancho Villa.
Frankie Genaro and Fidel LaBarba were the next generation after Wilde.

But there was one guy that fate prevented Wilde from fighting, he was Wales first World champion an unsung Welsh great, trained by 'Peerless' Jim Driscoll he was the same age as Wilde and was from a neighbouring village to Wilde in the Rhondda {can you believe that} his name Percy Jones.

Percy was a Sergeant in the Great War and was severely wounded, he suffered 30 operations before he had his leg amputated, Percy was also badly affected by poison gas, he died of 'trench fever' at 29 years of age.

Percy Jones had a record of 39 wins 2 draws and 0 defeats when he got his crack at the World title, Jones beat Bill Ladbury {who had taken the title off the divisions first World champion Sid Smith, Smith beat Criqui in Paris}, then the unbeaten World champion Percy Jones lost his next bout to the Frenchman Eugene Criqui in a non-title fight. {Criqui went on to win the World featherweight title}
To set the record straight as to who was the better man, a second bout was arranged just six weeks later, this time Jones's World title was at stake, Percy made no mistake and defended his title, after this bout, Percy never made the flyweight limit again, so he never lost his title in the ring {Jones flyweight record was possibly ?:- won 41, draws 2, losses 1}, he carried on fighting at catchweights and bantamweight, when the war started.

I have never read any article that says that Jimmy Wilde and Percy Jones should have fought or that they ducked each other, infact I have rarely seen them both referred to in the same article, which is strange as they were the same age, from the same place, the same weight, both served in the Great War and both were World champions.

 

Percy Jones comes in at #6 all time Welsh great according to a list on the BBC website, {behind Wilde, Driscoll, Welsh, Calzaghe and Winstone}, I also have him at #6 on the last list I put out, but looking at his record perhaps I should put him above Howard Winstone at #5.
Would have been an interesting local derby if Jones had fought Wilde, pit against pit, village against village.