Joe Bugner Tribute Thread: All Time Great Contender

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by kenmore, Jun 20, 2012.


Page 12 of 13
  1. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

    25,537
    9,541
    Jul 15, 2008
    Always liked Joe ... he was tough and had skills for sure but simply lacked both a fire of a great and rally had no punch ... tough combo ...
     
    he grant, Jun 26, 2012
    he grant, Jun 26, 2012
    #166
  2. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    25,213
    8,753
    Jul 17, 2009

    Good calls :good A Bugner-Quarry fight would have been a great idea. Both in that interim class of not being able to beat the best,but potentially better than the rest ! Could go either way,as you say.
     
    Stevie G, Jun 26, 2012
    Stevie G, Jun 26, 2012
    #167
  3. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    25,213
    8,753
    Jul 17, 2009
    A hypothetical fight between Frank Bruno and Bugner in his prime would have been a British classic.
     
    Stevie G, Jun 26, 2012
    Stevie G, Jun 26, 2012
    #168
  4. Senor Pepe'

    Senor Pepe' Boxing Junkie banned

    9,408
    48
    Mar 14, 2012
    1974

    Joe Bugner versus Jerry Quarry

    Right time for this bout, especially for Joe Bugner.

    December 1973

    Boone Kirkman, (Age 28 1/2.... Height 6' 1".... Weight 209 lbs.)
    Record........... 31-2-0 (22 KO's)
    World Rating... #7
    Titles............ Pacific Northwest Heavyweight Champion

    Joe Bugner versus Boone Kirkman, don't think Joe could punch hard enough to keep
    'Boom Boom' off of him.

    Boone was a notch better than Larry Middleton, and Larry handled Joe fairly easy.

    If the fight was held in the Pacific-Northwest, Joe would 'freeze-up'. I'll take Boone
    Kirkman by a 'close' 10-Round Decision (6-4-0 on the Scorecard)
     
    Senor Pepe', Jun 26, 2012
    Senor Pepe', Jun 26, 2012
    #169
  5. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    25,213
    8,753
    Jul 17, 2009
    A 1973/74 bout between Joe and Earnie Shavers would have been worth looking at too. Better than their real time 1982 one.
     
    Stevie G, Jun 26, 2012
    Stevie G, Jun 26, 2012
    #170
  6. jowcol

    jowcol Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,333
    840
    Jul 22, 2004
    Yes, especially for Joe since Quarry was on his faded downside. But wait, it was a bad year for Jerry to be fighting ''Joes". Frazier literally fried him in the rematch and in February of 74 he got 'clocked' in the first by journeyman Joe Alexander which almost nullified the Frazier rematch.

    I want to continue to emphasize that I loved Bugner after the youngster fared so well against Ali in early '73. Seemed to have all the skills and my buds and I spent hours over the next year wondering what Bugner might do if he continued with a good solid progressive development...but...no....he showed his 'no heart' in the big ones and (sorry kenmore) has zero quality wins in his career. But you continue to say its not about wins but how he fared against Frazier in mid-73, Ali in early 73, and Ali in his lone title shot (boring, no heart, affair.)
    Perhaps you might want to start a thread highlighting fighters that fought well in a couple of defeats against world-class fighters yet couldn't score a win against ANY top contender. That might be interesting.
     
    jowcol, Jun 26, 2012
    jowcol, Jun 26, 2012
    #171
  7. thejokerswild

    thejokerswild Guest

    Meeting old Bugner next week. Going to try get a pic with him. Great thread, full of info i didn't realize he fought so many notable fighters
     
    thejokerswild, Jun 27, 2012
    thejokerswild, Jun 27, 2012
    #172
  8. jowcol

    jowcol Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,333
    840
    Jul 22, 2004
    I guess kenmore has so many people on ignore that he can't respond to any posts.

    Hey, he can prop Bugner up all he wants as a fan and I respect that (I'm constantly defending my childhood hero Patterson here at ESB) but his logic on Joe's "greatness" totally escapes me??

    I guess he got the hairs on my back all prickly when he started the thread...something like(paraphrasing): "he was something special, believe it! Live with it!"

    Sorry kenmore, nothing underneath the left tit. After the Ali title shot in 7/75 he KO's Richard Dunn in the first (there's a stellar bone crushing effort if I ever saw one) he waits almost a year and a half before the Lyle Vegas scrap??? If he had the moxie kenmore wants us to believe he had he would have, AT LEAST, pounded Ron to a lopsided UD. Then?...more time off...this guy???
    His record speaks for itself and I repeat...."never has so little been done with so much!?"
     
    jowcol, Jun 27, 2012
    jowcol, Jun 27, 2012
    #173
  9. Senor Pepe'

    Senor Pepe' Boxing Junkie banned

    9,408
    48
    Mar 14, 2012
    Here's one

    Joe Bugner versus Roy 'Tiger' Williams.

    'A Battle of Under-Motivated Talent'
     
    Senor Pepe', Jun 27, 2012
    Senor Pepe', Jun 27, 2012
    #174
  10. kenmore

    kenmore Boxing Addict Full Member

    7,132
    28
    Jan 29, 2008
    I've got a lot of guys on ignore because they don't know their boxing, don't comprehend what's said to them, and because they argue in circles. Right now, in my book, you are just barely on the "okay" side, so I won't put you on ignore (for now).

    But still, you miss the entire point I'm making. The bottom line is this: how do we know how good a fighter is? Do we know from carefully studying their actual performances (body movement, speed, athleticism, etc.) against the best available competition? Or do we know from merely checking how highly rated their defeated opponents were? The former method is the gold standard for knowing a fighter's abilities. The latter isn't.

    According to your way of thinking, Leon Spinks is better than, say, Ron Lyle or Earnie Shavers, because Spinks actually beat Ali and the latter two didn't. Senseless reasoning, but that's your mentality. Nothing personal.
     
    kenmore, Jun 27, 2012
    kenmore, Jun 27, 2012
    #175
  11. kenmore

    kenmore Boxing Addict Full Member

    7,132
    28
    Jan 29, 2008
    As a British fan, certainly you are aware that the Bugner of the 1969-71 period was a very raw, underdeveloped version of the fighter that manifested between 1973-77. Vast difference in maturity, obviously. Unfortunately, a lot underinformed fans just don't realize this about Bugner.

    Bugner only had 16 amateur fights. His manager Andy Smith turned him professional at age 17, intending to take a few years, in the pros, to teach Joe the fundamentals. That's why Bugner was still so flawed and inexperienced when he fought Cooper, Blin (first time), and Bodell in 1971. Too much, too soon, really.

    But in 1972, Bugner improved vastly. That was Bugner's transition year, and the Ali and Frazier fights showed his tremendous improvement a year later.
     
    kenmore, Jun 27, 2012
    kenmore, Jun 27, 2012
    #176
  12. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    25,213
    8,753
    Jul 17, 2009

    Yes. A lot quote the Henry Cooper fight as one of Joe's prime battles,which as you state was n't. Joe was still finding his feet at that point.


    How do you envisage a prime Bugner v Frank Bruno fight going ?
     
    Stevie G, Jun 28, 2012
    Stevie G, Jun 28, 2012
    #177
  13. kenmore

    kenmore Boxing Addict Full Member

    7,132
    28
    Jan 29, 2008
    That fight could go either way. It definitely goes the full route; which guy comes out on top is hard to say. It's possible that Bruno might have had a slight edge, if only because he was more aggressive. Bugner tended to go into his defensive shell when under pressure from strong, powerful, world-level foes.

    But then again, the Bugner who fought Frazier might indeed have been too much for Bruno. Hard to say.

    People here say that Bugner lacked "heart," courage, or fighting spirit. They say this because of Bugner's tendency to assume the defensive, and because he didn't unleash spirited offensives very much. But I think such fans misunderstand things.

    The reality is that Bugner probably didn't feel especially comfortable putting punches together on the attack. Henry Cooper suggested that Bugner may have been a tad muscle-bound in this respect. I don't know. But if there's any truth to it, it would explain why Bugner liked to wait his opponents out while fighting defensively, all the while picking away at them with his best weapon: the fast, cuffing left jab. Bugner was just doing what came naturally to him athletically and physically, maybe.
     
    kenmore, Jun 28, 2012
    kenmore, Jun 28, 2012
    #178
  14. kenmore

    kenmore Boxing Addict Full Member

    7,132
    28
    Jan 29, 2008
    An interesting sidenote to Bugner's career is that he and Andy Smith didn't chase after the British and British Commonwealth titles after 1971. First Danny McAlinden won those belts (1972), and then Bunny Johnson won them. Bugner took the belts back briefly in 1976, when he KO'd Richard Dunn.

    I don't recall what the reason was for Bugner's ignoring the British and Commonwealth titles from 1972 to 1976, though.

    I do know that Bugner and Smith deliberately held on to the European title during these years, because that belt carried an automatic high rating with the WBC and/or WBA. By 1976, however, Bugner regarded his Euro mandatories as nuisances, so he dumped the belt altogether.
     
    kenmore, Jun 28, 2012
    kenmore, Jun 28, 2012
    #179
  15. Senor Pepe'

    Senor Pepe' Boxing Junkie banned

    9,408
    48
    Mar 14, 2012
    The Joe Bugner vs Danny McAlinden bout was in the works for early-1974.

    Following Joe Bugner's 1973 losses to Muhammad Ali and then 'Smokin Joe' Frazier,
    Joe bounced back with 'two' workmanlike decision victories over Guiseppe 'Bepi' Ros
    (10/73) and Mac Foster (11/73).

    Danny McAlinden and Joe Bugner looked like a possible March 1974 chance for
    the British-Commonwealth Championship.

    But, in January 1974, at Royal Albert Hall, Danny 'Mac' took on American Heavyweight and 'fringe contender' 'Irish' Pat Duncan,
    who defeated Danny 'Mac' by a solid and 'one-sided' 10-Round Decision.

    Pat Duncan, with the victory over Danny 'Mac' (his '11th' straight) moved into the Top 15 Heavyweights.

    In March 1974, at Empire Pool, it was (#15) 'Irish' Pat Duncan 30-5-1 (21 KO's) who fought Joe Bugner, in a more important Heavyweight bout.

    Joe Bugner (221 lbs.) won a Decision (W Dec 10) over (198 lbs.) 'Irish Pat'.
     
    Senor Pepe', Jun 29, 2012
    Senor Pepe', Jun 29, 2012
    #180
Page 12 of 13