Joe Calzaghe - Bernard Hopkins The Record Comparison Part 2

But you suggest instead:

Johnson - loses four fights, fight two bums, then loses two more fights.

Echols - lost to Hopkins twice, beats Brewer, kills some time until Mundine beats him.

Vanderpool - lost to Hopkins, fights bums until losing to Lacy.

Mundine - loses to Ottke, fights bums in Australia.

The only difference between those fighters and the ones that Joe did fight is that Joe didn't fight them, so you try to use them to prop up your failing agenda.

If Calzaghe had fought Vanderpool, Echols and Mundine instead of Sheika, Reid and Woodhall, all you would have is three different names on your 'leftovers' list and you'd be telling us how he could have fought Sheika, who'd just beaten Johnson, or how he ducked Reid.

To highlight the point, you laughably then have 'rematches against Reid and Mitchell' on your 'could have fought' list. Are these the same Reid and Mitchell that you refer to as leftovers and criticise Calzaghe for fighting the first time?!

 

That'd be the Mundine dominated by Kessler who Calzaghe then beat. And wow what a beast of a fight Vanderpool would've been ..........brilliant stuff

 

I'd prefer to give a resume overview, to show how Hopkins matches up against the best

FIRST TIER

Tito Trinidad - many people had him P4P no1, he just KO'd another MW champ in Joppy proving himself at 160 and Vargas at 154, the domination was very impressive

Tarver - fresh of beating Jones twice and Johnson, the man at 175 and on most P4P lists. Hopkins was 40. Completely dominated and kd'ed

Pavlik - won every round against the undisputed unbeaten MW champ, twice victorious against Taylor, P4P top 10, 4months from his 44th birthday

Winky Wright - P4P top5 at the time, I had him beating Taylor in their draw. Hopkins was 42

Johnson - another domination job on unbeaten future Jones conquerer

DLH - considered the best at 154, most thought he beat Mosley, beat Vargas, beat Trinidad for many but yes probably lost to Sturm when not looking his best. Made to fight at 156, 4lbs below the MW limit and Hopkins crushed him

Calazage - at 43, Hopkins was way past his prime and don't tell me these shots were landing and this is what happened all night

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Second Tier

Keith Holmes - WBC Champ

John Jackson - LMW and MW ex-champ

Simon Brown - 2 weight champ executed

Echols - massive puncher, went on to beat Brewer in 2 after Hopkins and Salem, 2 future Calzage opponents

Vanderpool - beat Glen Johnson, impressive stick and mover in his prime

Joppy - ex champ

Now compare those to:

Hopkins - 43yo and semi-retired, SD, I obviously had Hopkins winning

Kessler - huge win, but how good is he? Better than Pavlik?

Lacy - largely unproven at the top, a come forward fighter with wide slow punches, was he really any better than belt holders Joppy? Holmes? or a banger like Echols? Those are second tier Hopkins wins

Eubank (past prime) - quality win, but Eubank was coming off 2 losses and never scored a big win again after these losses, obviously past prime and was preparing for a fight at 175lbs before fighting Joe at a few weeks notice.

Reid - SD Reid was coming off a loss and this 1 is debatable if Calazage won

Hopkins resume is far deeper, more fighters in their prime and has better elite names.

 

I'm not sure what the point of putting up a half-arsed, selective and biased 'resume comparison' in a thread where Beatboxer has already done such a fair, balanced and detailed job to start the thread off.

 

Pinpoint anything I said thats wrong, because you won't be able to because your talking cobblers

 

It's selective, biased and unbalanced (especially, as I said, as you choose to post it in a thread where Beatboxer has already posted a substantially more balanced and knowledgeble version). Your only concern is to shore up your own agenda. Lets look at some examples.

Wright is described as 'top five P4P' when Hopkins beat him, but Hopkins described as 'semi retired' when losing to Calzaghe.

Johnson is a 'first tier' win for Hopkins and Vanderpool mentioned because he 'beat Johnson', but Sheika (fresh off beating Johnson) doesn't rate a mention.

What would you have next to Simon Brown instead of '2 weight champ executed' if he happened to be on Calzaghe's resume rather than Hopkins? '35 year old ex-welterweight who had lost 4 of his last 10'? Most probably you wouldn't have mentioned him at all.

Reid is 'coming off a loss' and Jackson is 'LMW and MW ex-champ'? Maybe if they were the other way round you might have mentioned Reid's status as ex-WBC Champion and you almost certainly would have seen fit to note that Jackson was 34 and coming off a loss (in the actually true sense) and not to anyone good.

 

Stop trying to pick out Hopkins worst opponents. Sticck to picking out the best Opponents Joe and Bernard have fought. There you will realise there is no comparision. Comon lets get real for crying out loud! Calzaghe held that shitty WBO belt for how long?? How many times did he fight in Wales?? He could have come out his comfort shell a long time ago against great fighters who had the real titles. Joe is talented but his resume it is a joke, you cant call a fighter a ATG because he has a perfect record.

 

I agree with everything excepot this: "Hopkins for me has beaten the slightly better competition on the merit of his win against Tarver.".

Tarver came straight from making Rocky and was clearly not back in boxing yet. Furthermore, Tarver was always a very unstable fighter. It is a good win, but Hopkins at LHW is clearly a better opponent than Tarver at LHW!!!. This was for the Americans. In reality Kessler is also a better opponent than the tarver Hopkins beat, but some Americans will find it easier to see that Hopkins is. Whichever way you turn it Tarver is NOT a better opponent than Calzaghe's best opponents.

If, however, you close your eyes and only look at names and have no idea of what divisions they fought in then Hopkins would have the best resume based on names such as Oscar and Trinidad, Tarver and Pavlik. However, for anyone knowledgable Trinidad and Oscar were way too small and the wins were discounted lot for this of course. Hopkins himself says the Pavlik win was his best ever win. I actually tend to agree. In tarver he met an aging guy coming straight from Rocky 6, whereas in Pavlik he met a young upcoming good champion.

 

I can see your point about Tarver, he seemed a bit weight drained. However Im sure Hopkins would have dealt with the one-dimensional Kessler. I mean who the hell had Kessler fought before Calzaghe? Nobody. He is a tough European fighter and thats about it. Also lets face it we all know that Taylor was lucky to get the decision in both fights against Hopkins. Taylor is a better fighter than Lacy anyway, he will prove this when the two face each other later on in the year. Hopkins resume is superior to Calzaghe's. He is a legend, Calzaghe isnt. Simple.

 

I could be wrong, but you seem like you're arguing the point from now, whereas the start of this thread was written prior to Calzaghe v Hopkins.

Hopkins at LHW is a better opponent than Tarver at LHW, but Calzaghe had not defeated Hopkins at that point.

 

B-Hop winning against Pavlik boosts his resume.

Also Calzaghes win over RJJ makes his resume better.... although i'm not sure if RJJ was past it completly or not. Because before the cut, he was definately in the fight, had Calzaghe in trouble in the 1st and could have does some more damge late on. He was way past his best, although he could've beaten many other LHW out there today.

 

Hopkins win over Pavlik at very least is equivalent to Calzaghes over Lacy. Given the time in Hopkins career he fought him as well it has to be better.

Joe did what he had to do over Jones (impressively - if that's possible) but that win really can't equate to anymore then beating a low ranked contender at very best.

Well that's my 2ps worth.

 

Who like? He hasn't beaten anyone semi decent for half a decade.

 

IMO and we will never know... he could've beaten Glen Johnson and Tarver... the only others out there who could beat him convincingly are probably Chad Dawson (not sure) and B-Hop.