Joe Calzaghe v Roy Jones Jnr 2002

Wound up?

No - it's just hilarious battering ******s like you :rofl:good

 

Such as?

 

Couldn't see Joe taking this one.

 

Joe would have gotten mauled by Roy at that stage of their careers.

 

:good

Ha!

Around and around we go, discussing the same topics over and over.

 

Bailey,

What are you talking about?

I've never said he was weight drained. I said he had a hard time making the weight, had little preparation, and was at the end of a long, hard career. Just because he put weights in his pocket, it doesn't alter the fact that he was preparing for his third fight at LHW to fight Mark prince, before he got the call. It doesn't alter the fact that he hadn't fought at SMW in over two years.

Again, I didn't say he was drained. But all things considered, it can't be classed as a great win for Joe.

I've never implied that Eubank lost a brutal fight to Collins. But Collins wasn't a great fighter in my opinion. His claim to fame was beating faded versions of Eubank and Benn. Benn faded very quickly after his fight with McClellan, and Eubank was never quite the same after the tragedy to Watson. Also, many people thought that he lost the Benn rematch, and he was very lucky to beat Dan Schommer and Ray Close. I don't want to disrespect Collins, because he was a very hard man, and he chased a fight with Roy for a long time. But what great fighters did Collins beat? The Bute and Pascal fight was a big fight. But the circumstances between Eubank and Calzaghe were completely different. You know that. Once again, I do think it was a good win for Joe. Because it was his first big test, and Eubank was up for it and still dangerous. But there's no way it can be classed as a great win.

Not at all. Stop twisting things. The reason that it can't be classed as a great win for Joe, is due to a culmination of things that we've already discussed.

Calzaghe did find it tough to make SMW, and many other fighters find it difficult too. But there's a big difference between having a two month camp to hit a certain weight, and then on only 11 days notice, having to hit a lower weight.

Your examples with Toney and Kessler etc are poor examples. Because the circumstances were completely different. Toney did have a lot of keep busy fights, but he was the IBF, SMW champ, and he was waiting for title fights. But Eubank had actually left SMW altogether, and was preparing for his third consecutive fight at LHW, 2 years after fighting Collins. He wasn't waiting for title fights at SMW like they were. His two fights at LHW, weren't keep busy fights while he got a big SMW fight. Again, different circumstances.

That's right, but Joe was only 25, and was he fully fit. He obviously held the advantages.

What's Ward got to do with anything?

Below is a brief excerpt from Eubank's autobiography, discussing his fight with Joe.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...h_q6qmhGC_HwPaw&bvm=bv.59568121,d.ZGU&cad=rja

 

Thanks for your great contribution. :good

 

If Roy decided to lay back and play the counter puncher, Calzaghe survives the fight. If Roy decides to turn up the heat, Joe gets stopped. He never would have been able to keep Roy off him with less speed and no real power.

Joe had better technique, but a lot of the guys that a prime Roy beat up on had better technique.

 

Bailey,

Part 1.

Impossible! Ha! We've had many debates/arguments, and sometimes they're heated. But you know I love arguing/debating with you.

I didn't know anything about him putting weights in his pocket for Thompson, until you told me last year. But again, I don't really see how it's relevant.

I know that his two fights in the Middle East were keep busy fights. But the difference between him and Toney etc, was that Toney had a belt, and he knew that he'd be defending it at some point down the line. He was just ticking over. He hadn't left the division. But Eubank had left the division after losing his belt to Collins. He weighed in at 177 for his fights in Egypt and Dubai. Toney only weighed above that weight once, in his seven to eight non title/keep busy fights. Kessler only weighed 169.5 against Green. Again, while ever Toney and Kessler had their belts, they knew they'd be fighting at SMW again in the near future. The circumstances were different for Eubank. I read recently, that Eubank's wife put him on a strict fruit diet for ten days, so he was able to make SMW. Hardly ideal preparation.

Why do you always try to do like for like comparisons?

Toney was the P4P no. 2, when Roy signed to fight him. He was 26, undefeated, and had beaten McCallum, Nunn, Reggie Johnson, Littles and Barkley. The weight obviously affected him, but having looked into it, he was more than confident going in, and he never mentioned a rematch directly after the fight. He was very respectful, but then took out his frustrations on his manager. Knowing how proud he his, and how big his mouth is, it speaks volumes to me that he didn't trash Roy and demand a rematch in the post fight interview. In my opinion, he knew he couldn't have beaten Roy. I truly believe that. So in my opinion, Roy's win was more impressive than Joe's. But I do agree that he struggled badly to make weight. But I just don't think it would have made a difference either way. It's a shame about the Dawson fight too. But again, it's irrelevant to what we're discussing.

Maybe so, but stats don't allow for circumstances. Who did he beat apart from Benn and Eubank? Eubank should have lost a few fights before he fought Collins, and Benn had retired after his loss to Malinga, only to be enticed back. In the second fight, he twisted his ankle. That wasn't Steve's fault, but I wouldn't say they were great wins. Do you give Malinga lots of credit for beating Benn, before Collins?

As above. Benn had already retired once, and shouldn't have come back. Eubank had struggled in fights before he lost to Collins and he was extremely lucky to be undefeated at that point. He could/should have had had three losses on his resume. (Schommer, Close and Benn II)

If you rate the Collins wins, I respect that. But I think Benn was at the end of the road at that point. I don't think it was the Benn that Eubank had beaten. Collins may have beaten the version of Benn that Eubank beat? But I really can't give Collins a lot of credit for those wins.

Not at all. It's common knowledge that the Watson tragedy took something out of him. He's spoke of it himself on a few occasions. Now I don't want to be disrespectful, because I have a huge amount of respect for any fighter, both amateur and professional. So no disrespect intended, but at least 7 of those guys weren't great fighters. They may have been ranked in the WBO's top ten, but they weren't great. (Jarvis, Essett, Ferreyra, Close, Amaral, Storey, Schommer)

I will have seen the Schommer one, but I can't remember it. I'd only have been 14 at the time, and I haven't seen it since. I used to watch all of his fights. Apparently though, Eubank admitted in his autobiography that he lost the fight. I'm going to have to order that. I watched the Ray Close fight last year (the first one) and Ray should have won in my opinion.

 

Part 2.

Benn and Eubank were great fighters. But not when they fought Collins, IMHO. It doesn't matter what they'd done in the past, it's where they were at the time they fought Collins.

Otherwise, you could say that Danny Green is an amazing fighter for knocking out Roy in a single round, who'd beaten Hopkins, Toney, Hill, Ruiz and Tarver etc.

Everyone's circumstances are different. You can't do like for like comparisons.

I've never said it wasn't a good win. But I don't see how it can be classed as a great win, due to a number of factors. You saw in the excerpt from his autobiography, that in his opinion, Ronnie Davies would have advised him against taking the fight if he'd still been with him.

You're being silly again.

1. It doesn't mean that.

2. Eubank was extremely lucky not to have lost three fights before he fought Collins.

3. It was a good win for Joe, but not great, again, due to a number of factors.

You're being silly again. A single pound can be a significant amount of weight to a fighter. In his penultimate week of camp, Eubank had 11 days to hit 175 or under. Then he had to drastically change his diet to hit 168 or under, what he hadn't hit in over two years, and he had to prepare to fight a southpaw, after he'd sparred with big orthodox LHW's, in preparation for Prince. Again, hardly ideal preparation.

We've covered this. Toney and Kessler's fights were stay busy fights, until a title fight was made at SMW. They hadn't left the division. Eubank had. Toney had 7/8 keep busy fights within a 17 month period. Whereas Eubank had only had two fights after he'd lost to Collins. His fight against Joe, was only his third fight in just over two years. Don't you think that if they were keep busy fights until he got a SMW fight, that he wouldn't have fought more than twice in two years, and he'd have weighed in less than 177? They weren't keep busy fights like Toney's and Kessler's. Again, he'd left the division. The circumstances were completely different.

He was in better condition than Eubank. Were Joe's hands really bad at that early stage of his career?

Yes.

I'm definitely going to get his autobiography. I don't mind Buncey, but he's contradicted himself before. But it was the old lion vs the young lion. A passing of the torch. It was a great fight, and a good win for Joe.