Joe Calzaghe vs. Andre Ward

Im sure we should be hearing from Bailey soon enough on this

 

:roflatsch

Dumb Yanks. Half of you Glass Jawed shemales don't even own a passport. Ignorant ****ing twats.patsch:dead:barf

 

Fighting against the pos journeyman Joe fought, yeah he would do that no problem. The WBO wasn't even a legit sanctioning body when Joe won the title, the defenses are a moot point.

 

the victory over hopkins was at 175 not 168. i'm saying that ward would surpass what joe did at 168 if he wins the super six.

 

Ward would keep it very close, but Calzaghe's workrate would ensure a win.

 

By beating a ring-rusty, one-eyed Kessler via headbutts, a Glass Jawed joke Allan Green, and an already-exposed, blown-up Middleweight Abraham? :roflatsch

 

Love how everyone talks about Calslappy in a negative light yet the vast majority have him handing Ward his ass.

Guess you don't know what you've got until its gone, eh?

 

People should stop looking at the damn records.

Calzaghe's style is ALL WRONG for Ward. And that's why he'll win against that kid.

Besides, damn, even MGER was a top 5 Ring Magazine SMW but most of you probably don't even know that and yet you guys claim top 10 Allan Green is better.

Calzaghe PUT the Super Middleweight Division on the map.

THAT is how you guys know who these fighters are right now. Because he brought attention to this weight class.


But back to the point, it's not who they fought, it's their freaking styles. And at Calzaghe's prime or even when he's freaking old, there is no way Ward can win against him because Calzaghe is too active so he won't lose on the scorecards, he can outcheat cheaters, he can outfight infighters, outbox boxers, and even famed masters of range and distance like Kessler couldn't match up in the end.

Even Sakio Bika was beaten far more effectively by Calzaghe than Ward ever did.

AND Kessler and Bika ARE MUCH OLDER NOW than when Calzaghe got to them.

But again, it's a styles thing. You cannot outpoint Calzaghe in your right mind. He works too much that even a clean punch is drowned out by activity. Your only hope is by KO, and he's shown to have a great beard and Ward lacks the power.

So Calzaghe UD. Not saying it's going to be easy. But it's going to be UD,

 

Again, you could say his technique sucks, but technique only helps you in a fight. It's not the thing that determines if you win or lose.

It won't win you a round if you're being swarmed to heck and can't throw enough to match the other guy.

One punch at a time can only be called effective aggression if it's effectively stopping the other guy from swarming you.

You CAN'T stop Calzaghe from swarming you.

 

Joe would beat him, as would Hopkins and Roy Jones JR in their day...heck they may beat him even now:yep

 

The poll here tells the tale -- don't worry about trying to convince people: They already know who likely takes the match-up.

The post that people want to hang there hat on here does not discuss the head-to-head contest, it discusses resumes. Resumes don't win fights, because styles make fights. There is a 20-10 guy out there who can bother a 29-0 guy because the style is wrong for the 29-0 guy.

Additionally, competition is different in various eras. You fight who you can fight during your time. Thus, someone who is a superior fighter can have a "worse" resume than an inferior fighter -- or seem to have so -- because of things such as available competition, how your promoter handles your career, etc.

Now, I will say this: Ward could still improve, and maybe there is a version of Ward that could beat Calzaghe. We have not seen that fighter to this point in time. I doubt he exists, or that we will ever see him. However, that is a possibility. We have seen Calzaghe at his best; Ward can still grow.

Given the available evidence, however, and based upon the attributes of the fighters involved and the style matchup, Calzaghe beats Ward. Consistently. I've gone over this in several posts here, and have yet to see the concepts refuted in a meaningful way. Or even a good attempt at same.

But as I said, the people on ESB don't seem to need convincing. This is what the poll results show.

 

Fair post, but a few things (I should just direct you to Brit's post, after all he's said it well.

1. Hopkins has a very low workrate in comparison to Ward, and isn't a huge puncher. Like MW said, he hasn't stopped someone since 2005 and that was at MW. Hopkins made Calzaghe look silly with counter-punching and timing. Ward is not as great as a counter-puncher, but he's also got much more activity, speed, and tools at this age to beat Calzaghe. Hopkins only had one option... sit back and counter-punch Calzaghe.

2. I think you're oversimplifying the "Ward can't hurt Calzaghe so he can't keep him off" angle. First, that first notion that Ward can't hurt Calzaghe is dangerous speculative, and probably untrue. Secondly, I could just say the reverse. Lastly, what's not to say Ward can't make Calzaghe miss, and frustrate him in a variety of ways. I think you have a bit of a fallacy on Margarito, and perhaps even Pacquiao. You're making the assumption that such a notion is true because it's never been done before. That's dangerous. Look, Floyd could easily out-box Margarito without having him respect his power. But hey, maybe you disagree. Power ain't everything.

3. How are there more ways Calzaghe can win than Ward. Ward is the more well-rounded, polished, technical fighter with more tools in his shed. The root of your argument seems to have stemmed from Calzaghe's stamina, Calzaghe liking brawls, and Calzaghe not respecting Ward's power. What's to say Ward will respect Calzaghe's power. His wild attacks against Kessler were so unpolished that Ward could easily match Calzaghe with sharper, shorter, more compact punchers.

If you can't see Ward having any chance of winning, then I think you may lack imagination. But this stems back to that particular lens you cast on certain fighters which causes you to be biased in my view. Look, all of what you written was angled in Calzaghe's favor as if Ward did nothing better. Even though the reality is he's more technical, better defensively, and more well-rounded than Joe Calzaghe.

 

Of course you have, you just refuse to listen. This isn't a situation or proving one person wrong or another. Fantasy matchups are completely speculative. Honestly, the other side feels the exact same way about your posts in respond to ours. But hey, I see this as a close fight. In fact, Calzaghe could win it. I've admitted that, but apparently Calzaghe is some super-human windmill that breaks down fighters with his supreme power-punching. Oh yeah, but when he's in there with a technical, crafty, smart, 43 year old fighter that's past his prime he'll look ordinary and barely scrap by with a SD in a fight some fans thought he lost. Yet, he's going to blow Ward out of that water because... 1) Stamina, 2) Won't respect Ward's power, 3) Ward's just a dirty fighter and Calzaghe likes it rough, 4) Cazlaghe's a beast that swarms and breaks down man, cyborg, and animal.

Oh yeah, and even the most adamant Joe C fans refuse to admit that Ward is the more technical, better defensive, more polished, and well-rounded/versatile fighter than Joe Calzaghe. And I actually like Calzaghe.

 

Im getting the feeling you dont like white fighters..hmmm.

 

1. Hopkins is a superior fighter to Ward, at least the Hopkins that fought Calz was compared with the Ward of today. He is craftier than is Ward (though Ward has more speed and higher workrate), and has more power. That's not a diss on Ward, it's more respect for Hopkins. Hopkins hits harder and with more bad intentions. The best way to say it is that the entirety of what Hopkins was bringing to the table (skill, power, Ring IQ, etc) when he fought Calz was superior to what Ward brings today. That's my opinion, anyways. Does that mean that the version of Hopkins that fought Calzaghe beat's today's Ward? Not necessarily. But I do feel that version of Hopkins was a better match-up for Calzaghe than is today's Ward.

2. Calzaghe had not been knocked down until his 36th pro fight. He was knocked down just 4 times in 46 fights (two of those coming when he moved up to LHW). He's not easy to put down, or hurt. In both of the SMW fights in which JC was dropped, he either dropped or stopped the opponent. Which is to say, if you hurt Calz, he'll hurt you back. At least as a SMW. Andre Ward is not a big puncher, never has been. That's a problem for him in facing Calz. The reverse (Calz cant hurt Ward) could well be true, but doesn't matter: If neither fighter can hurt the other, Calz' swarming takes over. That's part of my point. That is, if Ward cant slow down the Calz buzzsaw by getting him to respect his power, he's going to be run over. If the match becomes a test of workrate, Calz wins. Mosley made Pac miss; he also got almost shut-out. Making someone miss isn't the same as winning rounds: If your opponent throws 10 punches, lands 3 and you are only throwing 2 and landing one, you're probably going to lose the round. I could be wrong on Pac, Margo. But, one of the reasons why Floyd supposedly didnt want to fight Margo is because he did not want to have to throw enough punches to keep Margo off of him (brittle hands). That is, Floyd knew he would have to be able to keep Margo off of him. Dodging and countering a buzzsaw often isn't enough, and can be a dangerous game. Especially if you are actually trying to win a fight, and not just survive.

3. Again, because of styles, it doesn't matter if Ward respects Calz' power. He probably wouldn't respect it, actually. I can see scenarios in which Ward wins, they just don't seem very probable to me.

Calz is like Pac: It looks simple and "solvable" until you get in there and have to deal with the speed, power (for Pac) and workrate. Workrate is king unless power takes over; that's why I harp on Ward not being able to hurt Calz. Ask Margo's or Paul Williams' opponents. If you can't slow down Calz' output, you can't win: He throws too much. It's the same analysis as Al Bernstein gave in a recent outlook of Pac vs Floyd. If Floyd doesn't hurt Pac, he can't win. Why? Because Pac is too busy, and racks up points. I see Calz/Ward the same way, and since I don't think Ward can hurt Calz, I don't see Ward winning in a test of workrate.

Calz has two ways to win the fight: Workrate win, and brawl win. Ward has one way to win the fight: His normal style (stick and move; box). This is where I'm coming up with "Calz has more ways to win the fight."

As I said in the previous post, Ward can still improve and may become more versatile as his career goes on. Right now, I don't see him having the tools or style to beat Calz. Others can disagree.