Joe Calzaghe's world famous WBO ducktionary - a career of ducking examined

The belt Joe sat on for 21 defences moved dead men up the ranks, that just shows you what its worth. "The WBO twice moved Darrin Morris up in its super-middleweight rankings in 2001, despite the fact that he was dead. Morris was #7 at the time of his death and #5 when the WBO discovered the error. Varcarcel said "we obviously missed the fact that Darrin was dead. It is regrettable." One week after British newspaper The Independent broke the story, one of the three men ranking the boxers, Gordon Volkman, still had not heard that Morris was dead. In addition, Morris had only fought once in three years, beating a boxer with only 15 wins out of 78 fights. The WBO has never been able to build a brand name equal to the IBF (U.S.A.), WBA (Venezuela), and WBC (Mexico)"

 

The relevance is both Eastman and Froch being British champions, Calzaghe was (allegedly) ready to face the British champion from a lower division, but wanted no part of Froch who was the British champion in his own division.

Calzaghe wanted no part of Froch. See the thread title, Calzaghe didn't like his opponent having the following attributes:-

- Toughness
- Workrate
- Power

And Carl Froch combined all those 3 very well.

The haunting figure of Joe Calzaghe :roflatsch You Mean this:-

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The fact is Joe injured his hand the only time the fight was actually agreed. Other than that the other times of this fight happening were merely rumours, as no agreement had been made. I'm sure if Johnson had not kept losing around the times of these rumours then the fight would have happened. These are the facts you numpty... atsch

 

You say Froch bought little to the table at the time, but:-

Pudwill, Salem, Mkrtchyan, Sobot, Ashira.......... and Howard Eastman bought enough?

Calzaghe wanted no part of Carl Froch, it is an established fact.

It took Calzaghe 9 years to have a unification bout, so it is clear Joe Calzaghe was not trying to unify.

In that case why did he call out Howard Eastman?

Howard Eastman continued to remain in his own division, the Middleweight division. Eventually getting a title shot at the Undisputed Middleweight Champion.

Howard Eastman could have moved up and fought a WBO champ, but rather he chose to fight the Undisputed, Lineal, Number 1 Middleweight Bernard Hopkins instead. Respect to Eastman.

You don't know **** about boxing. (YDKSAB). Howard Eastman fought the number 1 pound for pound in the world, Bernard Hopkins. You couldn't have gone any better than fighting Bernard Hopkins at the time. Joe Calzaghe was seen as a WBOgus champ at the time, Hopkins was seen as the best fighter in the world. Go and study boxing.

Carl Froch was on the scene around 2003/2004, when he won the English SMW title, and also just won the Commonwealth title after a tough fight with Charles Adamu. This was around about the same time Calzaghe was facing the likes of:-

Tocker Pudwill, Byron Mitchell, Mkrtchyan, and Kabery Salem.

Surely Froch as the Commonwealth SMW champion of the world was better than Pudwill, Mkrtchyan and Salem at that time.

What about Tocker Pudwill, Mkrtchyan, Salem..................... Brancko Sobot

 

It's a similar situation to Froch and Cleverly, Froch clearly doesn't want to fight Cleverly (turned down a £1m offer and a shot at the LHW title), but at the same time Carl has bigger fish to fry - Kessler rematch. I don't hold it against Carl whatsoever

Calzaghe didn't want to fight Froch, but at the same time Calzaghe had bigger fish to fry - Kessler and Hopkins. I don't hold it against Joe whatsoever

That's just how boxing is - It's like Carl saying 'Nathan Cleverly doesn't interest me', but Yusaf Mack did? We know it doesn't work like that

 

Fantastic way of putting it

 

All roads lead to Calzaghe? that doesn't mean much, but simply he was in the right place at the right time..

Calzaghe wouldn't of even been a minor speed bump for some of the big boy trucks that drove on those same roads..:deal

 

Location: USA, Hopkins fan perhaps? Or a Jones fan maybe? Let me guess, you lost your car by placing a bet on either of these fighters beating Calzaghe?

 

I do believe Froch should fight either Cleverly, Groves or Degale to pass on the torch. Calzaghe inherited the heir from the Eubank/Benn/Collins era, and Froch should have inherited it from Calzaghe, but Calzaghe didn't want no part of him.

The differences are:-

1) Froch is in another division to Nathan Cleverly, but Froch and Calzaghe were in the same division.

2) Froch has fought Pascal, Taylor, Dirrell, Kessler, Abraham, Johnson, Ward, Bute. Calzaghe at the time fought bloated Woodhall, shot weight drained semi retired Eubank, and hardly beat Robin Reid, with the likes of Sobot, Mkrtchyan and Pudwill in between.

3) Froch has been fighting the elite, and has been involved in unification bouts, Calzaghe was fighting bums and took 9 years to get involved in a unification fight.

4) Everybody respects Froch, everyone including Groves, Degale and Cleverly, while not everyone respected Calzaghe, Froch certainly didnt.

5) All of Froch's world title fights (except Mack) have been better or at the same level as Cleverly/Groves/Degale. While most of Calzaghe's world title fights were shitter than Froch.

I can go on, but I believe Calzaghe wanted no part of Carl Froch. As for Froch fighting Yusuf Mack, just look at point 2, Froch has been fighting elite opposition back to back, the best two Calzaghe opponents back to back during his SMW reign were probably Manfredo - Kessler , Bute - Mack is more impressive than that.

 

What are you on about? Did I mention Jones or Hopkins? I am not even hating on Calzaghe, just commenting on the stupidity that thinking those stupid ass "roads to Calzaghe" mean anything.

What the **** does where I am from matter? I am sure many of your Countrymen would agree with me as well.

 

Carl himself has dismissed Clev, Groves and DeGale as potential opponents, which is fair enough, he doesn't need to fight these guys. He has unfinished business with Kessler. If Carl doesn't have a trilogy fight with Kessler after this, I think he'll retire. In a few years, no doubt we'll get some genius on these forums saying Froch ducked Groves, DeGale and Cleverly etc. etc. :dead

I don't see what Pudwill or Sobot have to do with Carl Froch? Please correct me if I'm wrong, was Carl a legitimate opponent for Joe when he was fighting Pudwill and Sobot?

Most of your post there is completely off topic considering we're talking about Calzaghe v Froch - The truth is, Carl wasn't relevant in the division until Joe had moved up to LHW then vacated and retired. I know boxing fans love a bit of revisionism, but that's the truth. Right now, Carl's focus is Kessler, and that the fight we want, more so than Cleverly. So even though Froch turned down a £1m offer to fight Clev, I'm not going to hold it against him. Personally I'd rather see Froch-Kessler 2, and hopefully I'll be able to get tickets when they're released next week, to go see the fight live at the 02 arena. Calzaghe-Kessler did 50'000 at the Millenium stadium, with the titles on the line. Calzaghe-Froch wouldn't have done that.

I don't know what Carl offered Joe, maybe you can find a link? But the reality is, the big money fights for titles were Kessler and Hopkins - Not Carl Froch. We all respect how Carl has fought the best, but it's irrelevant because those fights all took place after Joe retired.

Also Bute-Mack is better than Manfredo-Kessler? Interesting :think Personally I rate 2007 undefeated Kessler a lot higher than 2012 undefeated Bute - but to each their own

EDIT: I love how 32 year old Eubank is shot and weight drained, but 42 year old Glen Johnson wasn't
Woodhall was bloated, but Abraham and Taylor weren't
Joe struggled with Reid, I'm guessing you think Carl pitched a shut out against Pascal - I'm not having a go, I find it funny to be honest

 

You made a point Froch bought nothing to the table, I proved to you most of Calzaghe opposition didn't bring as much as Froch did. You actually think Tocker Pudwill brought more to the table than Carl Froch.

So your only excuse is those guys were subs and mandos. Was Gimenez, Thornberry, Starie, Sheika, McIntyre, Jimenez, Manfredo all subs and mandos aswell.

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I am not blaming Calzaghe for not taking on a tough challenge like Eastman, what I am saying is how can Calzaghe be keen to fight Eastman who was a division below, but not accept the challenge from Carl Froch who was in his own division.

Froch brought more money in than most of Calzaghe's oppoents:deal

Froch was more famous than most of Calzaghe's opponents:deal

Mr Frank Warrren and Hennessy have done business before, and Warrren was negotiating with Hennessy in regards to a Calzaghe vs Eastman fight, so promoters is not the problem as you are trying to make it out to be.

This is not true, let me take you down memory lane once again:-

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"I know what to do to beat Calzaghe,.......I don't think Calzaghe will fight me unless I put a meaningful title on the line but if I get one of the major belts he could not swerve me. - Carl Froch

"Carl will prove himself to be the best fighter in the country bar none. I truly believe he will knock Calzaghe out." - Fat Mick

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/5023478.stm

Froch hoped for a Calzaghe fight, when Calzaghe just beaten Jeff Lacy.

It took Calzaghe 9 years to get involved in a unification fight, this is a fact.

I agree, Eastman was more marketable than Froch at the time, but that doesn't change the fact, Calzaghe wanted no part of Carl Froch.

Hopkins wanted the Calzaghe fight, but decided to rule his territory which was MW, and waited for Calzaghe to finish his SMW reign so they can meet at LHW.

A fight against Hopkins is not going to come over night. Hopkins was not like Calzaghe and fight bums and making up late substitutes like Tocker Pudwill, Eastman obviously has to work his way up to a Hopkins fight and fight 12 - 4 Osman was the route he took in order to fight the best fight in the world at that time that was Bernard Hopkins.

4 - 0, Carl Froch was not 4 - 0 when he called out Calzaghe, he was an established Commonwealth and British champion.

Here is the incident: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/3673602.stm

And by the way, Carl Froch at 4 - 0 is probably still a better fight than Tocker Pudwill

 

Its stil not relevent to Froch. Calzaghe attempting to fight Eastman is a completely different scenario than him deciding not to fight Froch.

When Calzaghe attempted to fight Eastman there was no established British Super Middleweight Champion since Starie had relinquished the title he'd held for four year to go fight Ottke - and Calzaghe had already beat Starie when Starie was the established domestic Super Middleweight Champion - an Barney had only just won the title.

When Calzaghe chose not to fight Froch is was to fight Manfredo to gain exposure in America and bigger payday with HBO, then it was to set up the much bigger fights against Kessler and Hopkins and finally it was for that last big payday against Jones. Froch simply wasn't viable as a business decision at that time.

If Froch had established himself on the world stage a year or so sooner, if he'd beat Pascal and Taylor in 2007 instead of 2008 and 2009, then Calzaghe would have jumped at the chance to fight him in 2008.

Calzaghe was planning a last run that would do two things, 1 - it would improve his legacy and cement him in the upper ranks of the best fighters of his generation and division, and 2 - it would make him a hell of a lot of money.

Froch of 2007 - with the best name on his resume being and ancient and washed-up Robin Reid - could do neither of those things. Thus, the fight made no sense for Calzaghe at that time.

As for "he didn't want tough fight", the fact that Calzaghe took on Lacy - who was, at the time, one of the most feared fighters in the division - and Bika - who remains a tough prospect for anyone in the division and gave both Calzaghe and Ward difficult fights - then fought Kessler - his rival for the title of best Super Middleweight active at that time - and topped it off with Hopkins - who was considered the best Light Heavyweight and one of the top pound-for-pound fighters in the world - during the time Froch was calling him out would disprove that notion.

You can't take a quote from Calzaghe from 2000/2001/2002 and claim that he never changed. A simple look at his resume in the last three years of his career shows that he was looking for tough fights at the time, and fought the best possible opposition available at that time to him - tapering off slightly for the fight against Jones.

You could make a case for Froch being similarly worthy as Bika or Manfredo of a shot against Calzaghe during that period but he brought no more to the table than them at the time so you cant hold it against Calzaghe for fighting them instead of him, and you certainly cant accuse him of ducking Froch when he fought Lacy, Kessler or Hopkins.

 

Carl Froch is fighting better fighters than Cleverly, Groves and DeGale. Calzaghe was fighting fighters than were not as good as Carl Froch. That is a difference.

Around 2003/2004, Calzaghe was fighting the likes of Kabery Salem, Tocker Pudwill, and Mkrtchyan. Froch is better than those guys.

Circa 2012 Froch is fighting the likes of Ward, Bute, Kessler, and these guys are a lot better than Cleverly, Groves, and DeGale.

Cleverly has asked for a fight, but Cleverly is a division above Froch, anyone who thinks that is a duck DKSAB.

Check out this interview around the 3 minute mark, Froch talks about Degale, Groves and Eubank Jr. Interesting interview.

http://www1.skysports.com/boxing/ne...DeGale-George-Groves-and-life-out-of-the-ring

If you want to view it later or something, in short, Froch says a fight with DeGale in 12 to 18 months is possible given than he is at a decent level/rank. I hope to see Froch fight one of the young upcomming prospects.

Fair enough I agree, before 2003 Froch was not a legitimate opponent for Calzaghe. However after 2003/04, Froch was far better opponent than most of Calzaghe SMW reign.

Like I said, after 2003/04 Carl Froch was better opponent than most of Calzaghe's SMW reign.

True, I dont think Calzaghe Froch in 2007 could have sold out the Millenium Stadium, it would have been the biggest domestic fight at the time though so it was a decent level fight. Maybe Woods vs Calzaghe was bigger actually, but in the SMW division Froch Calzaghe would have been the biggest SMW fight.

Hennessy supposedly offered Calzaghe 5 million for a Froch fight and Calzaghe declined.

I rate undefeated Kessler better than all of Froch's wins, but I was comparing Calzaghe's best back to back wins in his SMW title fights, comparing it to Froch's worst back to back wins in his SMW world title fights, and Peter Manfredo added in the equation tilts it to Mack-Bute's favour.

Different fighters have different primes, some age slower, some age quicker, some age over night. Its to do with heart, mental attributes and style.