joe calzague couldnt lace roy jones boots in his prime

Nope. Jones was the man for as long time before DM got beaten by one of Jones left overs.

 

We are talking SMW, which is where Collins was champ. He didnt fight at LHW, he was champ at SMW, where Jones was also champ. So even if Jones had one major fight at LHW it would be more than Collins, so the answer would obviously be Jones, so back to the original question.
Who do you think did more in your opinion at SMW between Collins and Jones? Why duck the question?

 

It seems that you have different criteria for different fighters.

You keep chopping and changing to suit your argument.


In a previous post, you were telling us that Roy could have unified with Collins, because you thought he and Roy were the two best fighters.

Then you tell us that Joe beat the man at LHW, yet Roy was never the man at LHW.

One minute you're quoting official stats, then in the next minute, you're telling us to ignore them.


You're all over the place.


Dariusz had no claim to the WBC, and he obtained the IBF and the WBA after beating Hill.

He was fortunate that he got to him before Roy did. If Roy hadn't have been stupid against Griffin, he could possibly have got there first. Roy had his sights on Hill from early 97.

Now officially, yes, DM got those belts first.

But then Roy beat Del Valle and Johnson for them, and then crushed Griffin and Hill, before easily beating Hall, Harmon, and Gonzalez etc.

Also, Roy beat Harding, who'd beaten Tarver, and Dariusz took a dive against Roch.

So don't go all official on us all now.

Roy was clearly the man at LHW.

 

Seems you have trouble reading my posts.
I said between 1997-2003 DM was the man at LHW due to him being the "unofficial" unified Champion.

After 2003, in that post you just quoted of mine I mentioned Jones being the man until he met the 2nd best in the division at the time Tarver.

Tarver had business with Johnson, won the second bout and then he lost to Hopkins.

When Joe met Hopkins, FOUR YEARS AFTER 2003 Jones was a nobody.

 

Hypocrisy in full motion.

I left those quotes together to show how foolish you're being.

 

We know you think that Collins achieved something incredible, by beating Benn and Eubank twice.

Because as always, you concentrate more on what they'd done in the past, rather than looking at where they were when Collins actually fought them.

Collins's SMW record is poor.

Roy did as much in 6/7 fights as what Collins did.

He beat Toney and Malinga with ease, without anyone wanting any rematches.

Collins had a close fight with Eubank, who by his own admission, should have had at least two defeats on his resume, to Schommer and Benn. There's also many people who think that he'd lost to Close.

He then beat a faded Benn who'd lost to the guy who Roy beat in Malinga. Benn came out of retirement and had to put a large sum of money on himself to give him a boost, because he knew he was faded.

So all in all, there isn't much between them.

Collins had more fights at the weight, but Roy has the best win.

 

All things considered, how was DM the man at LHW, between 97-03?

 

1) Jones avoided him(I can get countless sources for this, if you've not already dismissed them as I'm sure you have)
2) He held more titles(regardless of being stripped)

Now, traditionally in boxing the guy with the most belts gets to fight at home. DM never had to chase Jones(Even though he did for 6 years)
DM knew if he went to America, he would have got robbed.
Christ, 2 organisations robbed him of titles without him even being in the ring.

 

It's you who chops and changes.

You can either go down the official route at all times, or you can have an objective debate using logic.

If you want to say that DM was officially the man, on paper, that's fine.

But if we're just going to debate on official matters only, then Roy could never have unified with Collins at SMW, and Joe was never a two weight world champ, who beat the man at the weight.

You can't have it both ways.

If you want an objective debate, then you can't pick and chose to suit.

 

Is there any point in debating?

You admitted earlier you were a good troll.

So are you trolling here, or are your points genuine?


What you've wrote above, is laughable and hypocritical.


1. Roy didn't avoid him, and the subject has been discussed to death in the past few years, with numerous links.


2. You're ok with Dariusz not having gone to the U.S. out of a fear of been robbed. You're also ok with Joe not having gone to Germany to face Ottke. Yet you're not ok with Roy not wanting to get robbed, even though he'd been scarred from the Olympics and he'd seen Dariusz take an awful dive against Roch?

This is what Roy said in 2001, with regards of going to Germany - 'I don't think a knockout would be enough over there!'


3. Who held more titles?


4. How on earth did Dariusz chase the fight for six years?


Ha! Just go and look at his resume.

 

1) I see you already dismissed the sources. Saves me dragging them up because you won't read them.

2) DM never had to travel to the USA. He was the "Unofficial" unified champion already.
Ottke was never regarded as a threat to Calzaghe, Joe never had to travel to Germany to potentially get robbed. Ottke was getting "Gift" decisions all the time. Joe was no fool.
Jones went about calling himself "Undisputed champion of the world" when he won the belts DM was stripped off.
He was a fraud. A winner of boxing politics.
If he wanted to call himself undisputed champion of the world he should do what other boxers do around the world. Buy a plane ticket, travel to the champions home Country, defeat the champion and then take them home to defend.

 

I never answered your 3rd question because DM chasing Jones is apart of the sources you already dismissed.

 

DM would not have kept the IBF belt anyway.. I have read quotes from Kohl saying they wouldn't fight Guthrie because he is with Don King..

Look at most of DM's competition at LHW.. Roy out shined DM at the weight plain and simple.. DM was holding that lineal title hostage in Germany basically, and watched Roy collect all his belts, occasionally taking a Jones leftover.

 

There's numerous links plus a video.

Just type their names into Google, as well as East Side Boxing.

Like I say, it's been done to death.


Here's a very quick breakdown:


Kohl made an offer to Roy, to go to Germany.

Roy turned it down because he didn't want to travel.

After Roy turned it down, Kohl said that they'd have to make Dariusz a very good offer to go to the U.S.

So Kerry Davis - VP for HBO, tried to contact Kohl to begin negotiations.

But because Roy had turned him down, he purposely ignored Davis's calls etc.

Davis then came up with a proposal to have them fight on a double header, to showcase Dariusz to the U.S. public.

The proposal was faxed across, and turned down flat.


Those are the main parts. I also posted an interview with Roy in Poland from 2012, where he said that HBO offered Dariusz $5m and it was turned down.

Other than that, there were snipes here and there, and letters through the media.


But again, look at Dariusz's career after Hill. He was just content to milk the WBO for all it's worth in Germany.

Actions speak louder than words.

Look what both fighters did after negotiations had broken down.


You say Dariusz didn't have to travel, because he was still champ. But if we go down the official route, Roy was officially the unified champ and held all three major belts. He'd also clearly done more at the weight.


Joe never had to travel? But Roy did?

Joe didn't have the major belts, yet didn't need to travel?

Roy did have the major belts, yet had to travel?


It was ok though, because Joe didn't want to get robbed.

Neither did Roy, but that wasn't ok?


You're really objective aren't you?

 

No going to bother with your spin crap ! What difference does it make who did what at what weight the issue was who was the superior fighter to most people it's a no brainer ! Jones ! To those with the agenda it's Collins ..