Joe Cazaghe was an overrated hack.

Good stuff mate.

I'm really enjoying reading your debate with Bailey.

He's my favourite poster. I call him the 'King of Spin'

I've tried reasoning with him like you have above, but you can't shut him down. He keeps coming back like The Terminator. Ha!

I've answered his famous two questions twice, looking at things objectively, allowing for different sets of circumstances etc. Yet it made no difference.

Like you've mentioned, you can't compare statistics with a guy who retired at 36, that had 46 fights, with a guy that's still active at 30, that's only had 27 fights.

So like your have done, I challenged him to do a comparison just from Joe's first 27 fights. But it made no difference whatsoever. He still claimed that Joe had a better resume.

Then there's the whole 'how many top, undefeated fighters has Ward beaten?'

To which I countered with, 'how many opportunities as Ward had, to defeat a top, undefeated fighter?'

Probably only one against Bute, but he wanted a rest after the final of the Super Six.

I also pointed out that Joe was 34 against Lacy, and was 35 against Kessler. Whereas again, Andre is only 30.

So, I've tried, just like you have above. But again, it made no difference.

Bailey is unstoppable!

So good luck in shutting him down.

But it's all good fun. :good

 

You have to be pretty good to beat Hopkins and a prime Kessler

 

Top 250 at very best. No way in hell a man who's career defining victories are three fights with one against a 44 year old and another against someone with half as many fights as his be rated anywhere below 250.

 

Every fighter has a different set of circumstances surrounding them. Life is all about circumstances and opportunities.

A guy who turned pro in the U.S. in 2004, obviously had a different career path to a guy who turned pro in Britain in 1993.

Andre has had opportunities that Joe didn't have, and Joe had opportunities that Andre didn't have.

But seeing as though Bailey hasn't allowed for circumstances in his direct comparison, then neither will we.


So let's go ahead, and do a comparison just up to each fighters 27th fight.


Joe - Andre:


Paul Hanlon - Chris Molina

Paul Mason - Kenny Kost

Spencer Alton - Roy Ashworth

Martin Rosamond - Ben Aragon

Darren Littlewood - Christopher Holt

Karl Barwise - Glen Le Plante

Mark Lee Dawson - Darnell Boone

Trevor Ambrose - Kendall Gould

Frank Minton - Andy Kolle

Bobbie Joe Edwards - Derrick Findley

Robert Curry - Julio Jean

Tyrone Jackson - Dhafir Smith

Nick Manners - Francisco Diaz

Stephen Wilson - Roger Cantrell

Guy Standford - Rubin Williams

Anthony Brooks - Jerson Ravelo

Mark Delaney - Esteban Camou

Waren Stowe - Henry Buchanan

Pat Lawler - Edison Miranda

Carlos Christie - Shelby Pudwill

Tyler Hughes - Mikkel Kessler

Luciano Torres - Allan Green

Chris Eubank - Sakio Bika

Branko Sobot - Arthur Abraham

Juan Carlos Giminez - Carl Froch

Robin Reid - Chad Dawson

Rick Thornberry - Edwin Rodriguez

 

He'll be back.

 

Calzaghe was very much a hot prospect when he handled Chris like that for the WBO SMW Title. He had tough domestic fights with Reid and Woodhall but these were also World Class. The best I have seen from Joe was against Sheika, Veit in Germany, Mitchell, Lacy of course, Kessler of course and Roy Jones Jnr in his last fight. But he had that tendency to wind up his punches whe he was rallying fast, slappin a lil bit, get squared up himself when too much on offense and that really makes me wonder why would I find him special when I saw that effort from Collins against McCallum even if it was losing effort, Benn's achievements, not to mention Carl Froch's, and some names of the past and from Europe, Marcel Cerdan specially? I rank Calzaghe very high tough.

 

Ouch!!:deal

 

Though, I have been reading Bailey's debates long enough to know you can never put him down, it would seem Ward clearly has a better first 27 fights..

What I am concerned with is Ward's inactivity... I highly doubt he will have enough fights at SMW to top Calzaghe's SMW resume. Calzaghe has a very deep SMW resume. Ward is already 30, he better get busy.

Though we do have to keep in mind, Calzaghe's best win was arguably at LHW.. Yes I understand it wasn't pleasing to watch, but Bernard is great at making you look bad.. I gave Calzaghe a close clear win there, and Bernard is still one of the top in the division some 6 years later.

 

Ward already has a better SMW resume.

 

Damn most of joe c stoppages were laughable and pathetic to say the least...smh! The refs had to be paid off or were homers for joe c.

 

Just a few points:

1) You can make fun of Calzaghe's stoppages, but he would have raped them by wide UD anyway. I think Floyd was a punk for what he did to Ortiz, but did it matter? No. Same end result regardless.

2)
(a) The Hopkins fight was not a robbery, not sure why I need to say that because everyone has already spoken and ESB in general knows it.
(b) Don't simplify it by saying Hopkins was 43. He is still a Unified LHW Champ at 49. I'm not sure how you can minimize Calzaghe's win, it's ridiculous.
(c) As bailey said, Calzaghe beat him sandwiched between Hopkins top wins like Tarver, Wright, Pavlik.

3) Kessler, Eubank, and Lacy were all very good wins too. Go ahead and make fun of Lacy. I'm sure you are the same idiots that thought Calzaghe would be sparked in 3 rounds.

4) 46-0 with NO garbage decisions. Don't bring up Ottke. Yes he was undefeated but everyone knows he had multiple garbage decisions. That's not an opinion either. (i.e. Reid, Johnson, Brewer, etc.)

Just admit he was a great fighter. I'm not saying he is a top 10 guy all time but Jesus give it a rest.

 

It's pointless really, because you can't directly compare two fighters from different backgrounds, who fought in different eras etc.

But hopefully, it will highlight the fact that his own two questions that he repeatedly asks, are also equally as pointless.

 

Joe Calzaghe was not a brilliant strategic boxer neither was he a big puncher. In my opinion, he was a non-stop, intense performer, a long distance runner who would adjust to anyone and who had some very obvious technical advantages such as dazzling handspeed and coordination head-body and fast counter puncher ability.
Andre Ward is more of the cerebral master of his trade who doesn't have a big punch or very fast hands or feet. He's more like the ultimate tactical unconventional boxer who can neutralize anyone no matter how strong or how big they are, with excelent coordination and almost automated footwork and upperbody work, clinches and punches out of clinches. Punches sometimes, boxes sometimes, walks around whenever he needs.
I can only see this fight going the distance and soon becoming a chess match with Calzaghe throwing and fighting on his frontfoot and Ward slipping punches, blocking them and tagging Calzaghe with counter-shots on the backfoot and in way in and out. I find it difficult to give it to Joe but sure Joe would do better than Carl and that Ward-Froch fight was already very close so...