Joe Frazier 1969 vs George Foreman 1973

I'm not so sure. Kenny just had something about him that troubled Ali, although what it was exactly about his style is anyone's guess. 60's Ali was on the other hand a fair bit quicker than the version Norton fought.

Yeah, I can see Ali maybe going 3-0, but I can see it also still being 2-1. Each fight would be a tough and hard-fought battle. I think Norton's style would always give Ali problems, no matter which version of Ali it happens to be.

 

Joe is one of my favs. I just don't see how EVEN in his prime years how he would pull this off. His style was made for george. Joe really came at you and the jab and big bombs George would throw would pick him off. His bob may have been a little quicker, but Joe was never really that hard to hit...he was just willing to take it just to hit you. In Frazier Foreman II Joe lasted a bit longer, but did not come in like he did in the first encounter. I see Joe maybe lasting a rd or II longer, but this is probably done in 5- rds.

 

I agree. Actually when I imagine the scenario that Ali never went into exile, Norton is the one I give most chance of taking his title. Either him or Holmes in the late 70's.

I can see Ali not taking Norton seriously enough and being made to pay (more or less how it happened in real life). He would always take Frazier more seriously and that's way I don't think he would ever have lost to Frazier if not for the lay-off. But Norton...

 

I think you might be underestimating just how awkward Foreman was during his first career. Frazier's bob and weave may have worked on Ali's straight punches, but George's looping roundhouses and uppercuts from the floor are quite different.

Either way he can afford to "miss alot of punches" because, if 1973 is any indication, he won't need all that many to take Frazier out.

 

Foreman is Fraziers kryptonie could never see him faring well against Big George.

 

Yep. It may go a round or two further maybe. Still, the same horrible mashing would ensue.

 

But you might not think that if Norton had have brutally stopped Ali in 1973 and 1976. The fact that they were thisclose makes most of us believe it would have been different in 1967.

 

There's no difference. Frazier was incapable of putting much weight behind his hook, it looks impressive visually, but the inpact from it was rather weak. I'm quite certain if Foreman just stood there and allowed Frazier hit him freely, Joe would need to land half a hundred punches before it has any effect on Big George. Frazier was that weak as a puncher.

 

To get a black eye or a cut requires one punch that doesn't have to be powerful.
Frazier always required to wear an opponent down with lots and lots of punches before they started to have a stunning effect on them. I haven't seen a single fight where Frazier was able to knock down a still fresh opponent (except glass-chinned, at heavyweight, Bob Foster), and even a worn out one still required several punches to put them down or out.

 

An odd viewpoint. I know Ali was very impressed with Frazier's power, even if it wasn't on par with Foreman's or even Liston's. But a left hook that caves in the face of iron man Chuvalo can't really be weak. He was one of the few guys to knock Quarry down as well. He had one of the great left hooks.

 

Another factor is refereeing. Does the referee allow Foreman's shoves? If so, a lighter Frazier might be at a further disadvantage. But if the referee doesn't allow the shoving, a '69 Frazier has a better chance of avoiding the bombs than the heavier, less trained '73 Frazier.
Also, I think conditioning can be very important right from the get go. It can be a big factor in how well punches are taken, and capacity to recover.
What does hurt Frazier against Foreman is that he's a bit square, a lot of bob but not much weave, and begging for the uppercut. I sometimes wonder wether Frazier's bad left eye might have impacted how he stanced himself.
Anyways, I think Foreman is to be favored but, also, '69 Frazier has a considerably better chance than the '73 model.