Joe Frazier 1971 vs Larry Holmes 1981

There was just something about Holmes, don’t know if it was his attitude or what, that was off putting to me in real time.

45 years later I appreciate what he went through coming along when he did and I appreciate his skills and I respect the hell out of him coming away with his senses and his dignity intact.

 

Your whole post had valid points, but Larry was scared off of Frazier early on in their friendship (intimidated badly), and is quoted later in life how he didn't stand a chance against Frazier in his prime.

If we see past the intimidation factor, I'm not sure (even with that ridiculous jab) Larry could keep Joe off him. Larry had to be set in specific ways to land his big uppercut, and I can see Joe smothering it for the most part.

Joe had a really good overhand right, but not quite the level of kryptonite for Holmes. But he would score with both hands enough where Larry gets very worn down after 8 or 9 rounds. I don't think Joe could knock him down, but I think Larry would be in very bad shape by the 10th or 11th.

 

Good post, well thought out. We might not agree on the outcome, but you gave plausible reasons for what you think. I think 1971 and before, Frazier was an excellent fighter, but I'm not convinced that he could get past 1981 Larry Holmes. To me, Holmes did some things different and better than Ali, actually, I think LH was a better fighter than Ali with a better jab, and I suspect that he would be able to beat the best Joe Frazier. I don't put much credence into fighters saying that " ______beat me up one time, or I'd be afraid of ____." I think a lot of times it is just showing respect to elders or trying to say the right thing. I think 81 Holmes and 71 Frazier are two workman like fighters who would both do their best in the ring, and in reality I don't think either would be intimidated by the other.

 

People have called Holmes under-rated for so long he’s become over-rated.

 

Holmes

 

Holmes is rarely, if ever, respectful of other fighters, though.

 

I think Frazier with a very hard fought victory, probably with a late stoppage.

 

He didn't Holmes with anywhere nearly as much as Frazier would. Holmes did take a lot of Norton's and Witherspoon's body shots, but they definitely slowed him down. And neither were the body punchers Frazier were.

This isn't a knock against Holmes. Nobody took it to the body like Ali.

 

Again I disagree. Holmes' defense was quite ordinary at times, and he definitely had lapses of judgement which is why Shavers nailed him in the first place. Berbick and Weaver nailed him with quite a few lefts for someone supposedly invulnerable to them.

It's not Ali was the GOAT or anything.

Frazier was also passed it for the latter two fights. In fact, more so than Ali.

Frazier had the highest slip and duck rate in heavyweight history, against the most accurate heavyweight of all time. The uppercut wasn't a particularly useful weapon for him, unless your name was George Foreman, because of Foreman's unconventional angles, and body mechanics. Even so Frazier was past his prime by then, and noticeably easier to hit. That's the only person who ever had success with the uppercut.

Even in the rematch when George changed his style, and body mechanics, his uppercuts were drastically different due to Clancy's teachings. They went "sideways" for lack of a better term, and weren't nearly as effective. This is a big reason why he had so much trouble putting Frazier away in the rematch despite facing a much much worse version this time around.

Otherwise, the right uppercut is the worst punch to throw against a left hooker because it leaves you completely vulnerable to their best weapon. Ali got knocked down for attempting such a shot in that 15th round.

 

Anyone that goes lots of rounds with Frazier is going to wear a truckload of hooks, perceived weakness against them or not. If you can't smash him early you're going to get hooked hard and often. The man was a left hook machine. Christ, Ali spent 41 rounds in there with him. He did well not to get stopped across that amount of fights. How many guys would survive those three fights and their duration? Not many.

 

But but but Holmes is immune to the left hook (as long as we ignore the plenty of times he was hit with the left, and the fact that was the punch Weaver had the most success with).

 

Yeah Holmes could be hammered with some lefts and Ali with some rights. It just so happens that the punches that dropped them came from one side.

 

It's just insane to me, people think he was immune to the left. Like have you guys seen his fights?

 

Preaching to the choir mate.

 

I don't think Holmes would be intimidated, nor do I think he "doesn't stand a chance". I would favor Frazier for sure, but Holmes has a chance with anybody.