Joe Frazier '70 Vs Lennox Lewis '97

I don't know, thats the point.

Point being he could of KOd Holyfield and didn't even though he had him in trouble at different points in there 1st bout. He probably could've KOd Tyson by the 6th as his corner screamed at him to do. I personaly think he could have KOd Tua as Tua fought like a Mummy in there bout. This is what I mean by being overly cautious.

 

Frazier over Micheal Grant yes. Over Lewis, no

 

Lennox either catches him early or Joe takes him apart in a more advanced version of the Mercer fight ... Frazier's stamina and tenacity were exceptional ... I just don't know ...

 

Excellent post. Frazier won't be able to get past the jab and he would get murdered by some of Lewis' right hands.

 

Just how would Frazier not get past Lewis' Jab? He got past Alis', Ellis', and Mathis' Jabs. There's no reason to think he wouldn't get past Lewis' Jab.

 

The size disparity is too wide here... Lewis is bigger, stronger, taller than him, outweights him by at least 30 pounds... Lewis isn't Ali but he's not a sitting duck either. If someone can get Frazier's respect from the outside, it's Lewis, he has some serious punching power, range and boxing ability to kill Frazier before he gets time to warm up.

 

:huh So because Lewis is bigger and "stronger" then Frazier he couldn't get past his Jab? He didn't seem to have a problem getting past the afore mentioned fighters Jabs.

Right. And his Jab wasn't as good as Alis' or Mathis' either. Neither was his footwork.

:-(

 

I know this conversation is between you and Nick, but I'd like to chime in on a few things here.

Lewis would bring a lot more to the table than just a good jab and some footwork. As Nick pointed out, the size difference here is not just marginal but significant. In coming in towards Lewis, Joe would would be hitting upwards against a man who was 6 inches taller. His punches would lose some of their power from that range. What's more, Lennox had great strength to go with his size, and knew how to tie a man up as he was coming in, to neutralize his attack. Furthermore, Joe's strongest asset was the left hook, which worked beatifully against Muhammad Ali, but was not a particularly useful weopon against Lewis. Lastly, Frazier was a man who needed to warm up over time before he was hot, and typically defeated his foes with an accumulation of punches, as he was not exactly a one-punch KO artist. He was actually losing the early rounds of his fights against Quarry and Ellis - Not something he could afford to do against a man who could really hurt him early.

Taken everything into account, I really don't know what Frazier would be able to do to Lewis, outside of having a mere puncher's chance. Sure, we can talk all we want about Lennox's defeats to McCall and Rahman, but neither of these fights offer a stylistic answer to Frazier's problem.

 

Hehehe thankd buddy, you explained exactly what I felt.. my vocabulary is somewhat limited in English, that's not my first language

 

No problem. Your English reads fine to me.

 

No problem Magoo, I respect your opinion. Frazier always dealt with bigger Men. Ali 6'4 215, Mathis 6'4 225. Both were supremely strong and knew how to nullify there Mans offences at there best. Both Men were technicaly as good, if indeed not better than Lewis in certain aspects. Both possesing good left Jabs, quick foot work, Ali quicker, and Mathis at least as quick if not arguably better, worked combinations well, and had a variety of punches they could throw. They could also take it. Peak Frazier beat Mathis at his best. A slightly past it Frazier, as I consider the 68 - 70 Frazier the best version, pounded out a victory against Ali in the FOTC, a Man whom many consider the best Heavy ever. My point is that anybody who thinks that Lewis would Man handle Frazier simply because of a height and weight advantage, or breeze to a relative easy victory within 6rds couldn't be more wrong and makes me question the extent of there knowledge.

 

There's not only the reach, height and weight advantage but also that huge power Lewis could put in his punches. Frazier used to have a field day vs pure boxers who cannot put him away.

Lewis is another animal. He could outbox shorter fighters, but could also destroy Frazier with heavy right hands, straight, overhand or with uppercuts.

 

Not to nitpick here Joe Ezzard, but there are a few things that I have to question seriously.

1. Do you really think Joe Frazier was " slightly past it ", in the FOTC??? It is the common concencus of most fans and experts ( and Joe Frazier ), that he was at his optimal best for that fight. He was 27 years old and had never trained harder for any other match. He prepared for that fight like it was the one sole purpose for his existance.

2. Outside of mere size, what other commonalities do you see between Buster Mathis and Lennox Lewis? Lewis was a finely conditioned champion with a well rounded arsenal of boxing skills, power, size and wins over rated opposition. By the way, Mathis was NOT 6'4", 215 Lbs. He was 6'3", and a rather deconditioned 245. Additionally, he had absolutely zero wins over anyone noteworthy prior to facing Frazier.

3. Of all the things that both Nick Balsamo and myself listed, did you only take away from it that Lewis was just bigger than Frazier and that's it? I seem to remember listing quite a few more reasons than just that. The simple fact of the matter is, men like Muhammad Ali, Buster Mathis, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis and Oscar Bonavena could not hurt Frazier early the way that Lewis could, and the fact that they all started off strong against him is a blue-print for a real problem. Sure, Joe was a better fighter than Rahman and McCall, but Lewis fought Rahman when he was 35 years of age, and Joe had nothing in common with either Raman or McCall anyway. As a matter of historical fact, Lewis devoured men who were left hookers, and more specifically ones who were much smaller and troubled by big right hands ( such as Frazier ).

CONCLUSION - I respect your opinion, as I do every other poster's, and if you still want to go with Frazier, then fine. But, if you want to convince me that he would win a head to head fantasy matchup against Lennox Lewis, then you're going to have to come up with something better than " size doesn't matter, " or " look at what he did to Ali and Mathis ".

 

could go either way

 

Yes, he trained furiously for this bout. But look at some of his earlier bouts. Frazier employed much upper body movement, slipping and blocking blows in an effort to work inside. He did the same with Ali in 71 but it seems to me that he was slightly off.

Mathis is generaly seen as a Fat Ass. A poorly conditioned athlete who didn't take his profession seriously. My Father used to refer to him as that "Fat Ass from Flint". Mathis however was anything but a slow, fat, ploding fighter earlier in his carrer. He had excellent hand speed, quick foot work that belied his size, very good boxing skills, and threw a variety of punches. His weight ballooned later in his carrer and he became the fighter that most people are familiar with. Also I had read once that Mathis was 6'5. I havn't checked his height lately and was working strictly from memory. I do know that he weighed about 225 for the Frazier bout.

That seems to be the crux of the pro Lewis argument. He was to big, to strong for Frazier to handle.

And Quarry, Mathis, and Bonavena were good punchers.....

You've just proven one of my points Magoo. 3 out of the 4 Men you mentioned were good punchers and Frazier still, more times then not won.

Morrison and Tua come to mind immediately. Morrison was a hard hitting journeyman and as I have stated previously Tua fought like a Mummy in his bout with Lewis.

I respect your opinion too Magoo. I think your one of the better posters here. However, I will never be convinced that Lewis would Man handle Joe Frazier the way some said he would especialy based on Fraziers size. :good :hi: