Joe Frazier '70 Vs Lennox Lewis '97

This is definately a first, both on this board and in every conversation about boxing that I've engaged in. Frazier's first meeting with Ali is by all standards, the best performance of his career. His upper body movement was off the charts, and the number of punches thrown in that match was insane. If you're going to reference his performances in some of his earlier matches, he was floored by Bonavena and losing the early rounds against both Quarry and Ellis. There is no way that his ability to slip punches was superior in those fights to when he fought in the fight of the century. Fans on this board have convinced me over the years that Joe was past it by the time that he fought Foreman, but I absolutely refuse to submit to the notion that he was declining in 1971....Not gonna happen....

Boxrec had him listed at 245 for that match. I realize that boxrec is not the greatest source of information, therefore if you can find a different citation, then it would be much appreciated. Also, could you please list at least one quality fighter who Mathis defeated?

This was not the crux of MY argument. I specifically listed a number of reasons and attributes from both a physical and stylistic standpoint, and for whatever reason you continue to believe that my argument is bolstered on size alone.....Why?

Not a single one of those men even remotely measures up to Lewis's punching ability, and what's more, he was floored by one of them, while being outboxed early by some of the others.

And how badly did he struggle with either of those men? He dominated in both of those fights. And incidently, have you ever heard of a fighter named Donovan " Razor " Ruddock?

[/QUOTE]Fair enough, but again you seem to think that its all about size, and while that is definately a factor, there is far more to the equation...

Good day......

 

If you don't mind me jumping in, i think you're making a few mistakes here.

First of all, you are right in saying Quarry, Bonavena were good punchers, and Frazier still won. But Lennox Lewis wasn't just a good puncher, he was a devastating puncher.

You call Morrison a hard hitting journeyman, but he was ranked in the Ring's annual top10 twice. How often was Mathis ranked in the same ring top10? Exactly: never.

Furthermore, do you think the fact that Tua had to make up for 6 inches in height and 14" of wingspan reach with just a left hook, had anything to do with him looking like a mummy?

And does the latter description have anything in common with Frazier? Frazier is more active than Tua, but he's also missing the one-punch power equaliser that Tua has, and doesn't have the Samoan's iron chin, either. His footwork is better but not significantly faster.

 

Mr ChrisPontius, respect to you for your opinion.

However I disagree with you slightly. Before Futch added the bob and weave element to Frazier's game, he was a better than decent stand up boxer who was effective with his right hand. A lot of people on this forum say Frazier had no right hand which is false. He beat up Quarry, Bugner, Ellis and Chuvalo with that right hand. Sure, his left hook was the bread and butter punch, but when Frazier threw his right hand, he did have some power. He landed quite a few right hands against Ali in the FOTC rematch, that he ignored against Foreman.

Frazier was a converted southpaw which made his left hook a more powerful shot, but in an othodox boxing stance, right hand power is naturally created with the right foot generating power from the rear. Joe Frazier was not as versatile as the average stand-up, jab-straight-right, boxer but he had enough skills in his arsenal aside from just the left hook alone. A truckload of punches? Compared to who? Yeah Frazier was vulnerable in the early rounds, but as much as you say other fighters landed a truckload of punches on him, Frazier definitely made people miss a truckload of punches.

 

Lewis' jab is nowhere near a quick as Ali's and FOTC Frazier made Ali miss a whole lot of jabs. Lewis' jab is definitely heavier but nowhere near as quick. I think Frazier has an easier time slipping Lewis' slower, heavier jab and whacking that big body with hooks.

Again, using the Foreman fight as an illustration to how Frazier would fare against Lewis is wrong. Late 1960's Frazier was a much quicker animal that bobbed and weaved effectively to elude fighters with a jab.

 

Some say he was slightly past his best against Ali in the FOTC. His cataract and hypertension problems were mentioned by Durham and Futch, who both wanted him to retire after the FOTC.

 

Frazier used the right hand, but he didn't beat fighters up with it. The opponents you mentioned, Quarry, Ellis, Chuvalo, were all destroyed by left hooks. Chuvalo was horrendously swollen at the right side of his face, Ellis was knocked down twice, both times by left hooks, Quarry was bashed by both but it was the left that really staggered him.


As for Futch, he didn't do ****; it was Yank Durham's work and i think it's a damn shame Futch seems to get credit for Frazier's style just because he worked with him for late fights, most infamouly the Thrilla in Manilla.

 

Good yes. Devastating well I don't know. In what sense? A Liston or Louis sense? A Foreman sense?

And Mathis had zero going on? Has anyone here ever seen Mathis fight? Tommy demonstrated he was good enough to be a contender. With a good Left hook and skills and a little bit of China in his chin. He had some decent wins on his record but utilmately I think he could be Rex Layne.

No. The fact that he slept walked through 12rds. and did nothing made him look like a Mummy. One of the worst I ever seen.

. And Tua dosn't have Fraziers balls. He "may" not have Tuas' one one punch capability but his Left hooked was a fearsome weapon that was widely respected. And whos Iron chin did Tua ever dent?

 

You'll make up your own mind Magoo. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, thats not my bag. I'm just having a conversation with you and the others.

Your right. I stand corrected. He was close to 245. To answer your second question, none. You want an example of Mathis check You Tube and you can see Mathis/Frazier for yourself. You might be surprised.

I don't believe I have kept coming back to size. I used Ali and Mathis as examples of big Men that Frazier handled to demonstrate that though imporant, size isn't all that. I believe I also have made points concerning styles as well. Joe was easy to hit but at his best he could take it. He also was not easy to get at with effective punches at his best due to his Bob and Weave style and his ability to slip and block blows. He was also a decent counter puncher.

Perhaps. Lets say as a point of argument that I were to agree whole heartedly with that statement. My point would be who is to say Frazier couldn't take it?

Did he win?

Yes.



Fair enough, but again you seem to think that its all about size, and while that is definately a factor, there is far more to the equation...

Good day......[/quote] Take it easy Magoo.

 

If, and that is a big if ,Frazier makes it past the 10th over 15 Lewis is in BIIIIIIIG trouble. Lewis absolutly has to get him out of there in his usual comfort zone. If he fights overly passive like in the Tua fight , lets Frazier get "smoking" at a very elevated pace this could be a difficult night for him. IMO , while Frazier will most likely slip most of his powerful but relative slow jabs, his uppercut/leaning/tying up will be the key to victory. I am not convinced that he can keep Frazier at bay with the jab and bomb him out with long range right hands.

 

BTW, I personally don't think the Ruddock fight was such a great performance by Lewis.

Ruddock got a lot of legs for getting beaten up by Tyson and most likely would have been distinctly KO'ed in the first fight, if I remember correctly he had his arms tangled behind the ropes when Tyson started to finish him aka defenseless and Steele got scared "this ain't no gladiator sport" with stopping it.In the second Mike was already in full bore party mode, signed the fight in a stripclub and barely trained three weeks for it. Still it was a fairly one side beating where Mike gave Razor a couple of broken ribs and a shattered jaw. IMO this had a profound effect on ruddock for the future, he never showed the same grit or heart again.

Last but not least his new trainer( for the Lewis fight) , F Patterson , instead of honing what worked best for him, tried to turn him into a boxer which ultimatly backfired when he over reached with his silly body jab and Lewis came easily over the top.

So again, besides sending the washed up Dokes and Bonehugger to Dreamland, getting two viscious beatings from a already slightly decling Tyson there is not much to write home about Razor.

IMO, he falls in the same category as Tua/Golata etc who build their resume on losing big fights.

 

Sure. The only guys going the distance with him have iron chins, i.e. Holyfield, Tua, Mavrovic, Tucker, Mercer, McCall, etc.

He blew out Ruddock in two rounds whereas Tyson couldn't legitimately finish him in 17 rounds. Did Tyson ruin him? Maybe, but he was never the most durable of guys and down plenty against Tyson in the first place.
Lewis also destroyed Golota faster than Tyson did, though Tyson was past his best there. Still, when Lewis had Golota hurt, he couldn't recover, whereas Golota at least had the chance to make it out of the round (twice) when Tyson had him hurt.

Yes, which is more than what Mathis can claim.

Whose iron chin did Foreman ever dent?


Everybody is bashing Tua on his woeful performance against Lewis, and rightfully so, but at the same time, a lot of people tend to forget how incredibly hard it is to fight someone with that gigantic height advantage who has great footwork (wasn't trapped on the ropes/corner for 12 rounds), especially when you have short arms.

And all Tua had to do, according to a lot of critics, was land ONE left hook. Well he did and nothing happened of course, but the point is that Frazier has to land his left hook over and over and over; that's always been his style. He has to wear you down. And given the difficulty of landing and his , and the style of taking two to land one, that's going to be one hell of a job.

 

I agree with the general sentiment of your post, but no offense it is coming close to excuse-making.

You're not giving McCall any credit for executing a good fight strategy to perfection, instead choosing to point the finger at it not being Lewis' 'prime' because Stewart wasn't in his corner.
Maybe it wasn't absolute peak Lewis, but prime? Hell, yes it was prime Lewis in there.

The other loss is often glossed over as a fluke, or bad preparation is blamed etc. by people.
Did anyone notice that Rahman came to fight; that he caught Lewis with several hard right hands?
Let's give the opponents some credit.
Maybe Lewis has legitimate excuses for the losses or maybe he was simply caught with great right hands and it would have happened regardless of physical and mental condition.

 

I hate to say this, because i like Frazier, but i think Lewis would win.

 

His wins over againg ex-champs were overhyped and overmarketed for sure. But, Ruddock was a solid fighter from about 1989-1992. Dokes, though past it, was keeping busy and still a top 4 or 5 rated guy. He was maybe 31 years of age and still in fairly decent shape ( though he did show up about 10 pounds heavier for the Ruddock fight than he did for Holy. ) Razor did to him what most men at the time couldn't, and mind you this was an exceptional era of heavyweights. He was predicted by some as the next heavyweight champ upon Tyson's departure. He was in sculpted physical condition, had a reasonably good chin and was dangerous with the left upper cut to both the body and head. He kept busy after the Tyson losses scoring some decent KO and TKO's over what I would term as middle of the road opposition, but certainly not tomatoes either. Lewis destroyed him in a mere two rounds and while still being in the developmental phases of his career. I'll agree that Ruddock was overhyped, but he was a respecatable contender at the time and Lewis took a big step up in beating him in such convincing fashion.

 

So your saying that after Tyson ruined Ruddock Lewis KOd him in devastating fashion but Ruddock was never durable to begin with? OK. Let me say this: Lewis could punch yes but prime Frazier could take a big punch. Foreman being the only Man to KO him and that was when he was already on the down hill skid.

Mathis was a contender in the late 60s early 70s when the division was arguably the best it has ever been. Give the Man some credit. Ultimately he too was also a journeyman. A man with good skills who didn't quit have enough to make it to the top. Again my point being Frazier fought skilled Big Men and still prevailed despite the obvious dis advantage.

How about Fraziers.

Which demonstrates Tua didn't have the skills or plan against Lewis. Frazier would.

I know. Frazier was merely a punching bag there to be hit with zero defensive skill.