Joe Frazier '70 Vs Lennox Lewis '97

....and it's a method that worked very well for him!

Frazier (1970) IMO would beat Lewis (1997) fairly comfortably. Lewis, in mid 1996 against Mercer ( a similar but cheaper version of Frazier) was still green & learning, and was lucky to get by. IMO, six months later, he would not have been up to Frazier.

 

Frazier's method works great for him against guys who are good but not great punchers.



As for the Mercer fight: Frazier doesn't have Mercer's jab nor his chin; Mercer took hellacious shots that night and kept pressing forward.

 

I think you're underrating Frazier's chin ChrisPontius. Mercer had perhaps one of the best chins in heavyweight history, but Frazier was a fighter who took Foreman's best shots and still finished both fights on his feet. Interesting to see what would happen between prime Mercer and 1973 Foreman, but I'd bet that Mercer wouldn't get up as many times as Frazier. Mercer might even catch Foreman and hurt him. Maybe I'm confusing toughness and heart with overall grade of chin, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Other than the first Bonavena fight, in which one of the knockdowns was more of a push-down Frazier had one of the greatest chins in the history of the sport as well. He couldn't fully extend his jab due to a childhood accident, but Frazier's compensation for that was to set it up with his head movement, and often following it up with his hook. Don Dunphy during the commentary for the FOTC, said Frazier had a very good jab.

Ali hit harder than most heavyweights when he sat down on his punches, and Frazier ate up practically all his best shots. Foreman didn't make it out of the 8th round against Ali, drugged or not.

 

I think ChrisPontious hit the nail on the head when he said Frazier is well suited against good but not great puchers. Against a dreadnaught like Lewis Joe would have to absorb some frightening punishment on the way in and that would be his undoing. And while Joe kept getting up against Foreman, he was out on his feet and helpless nonetheless. All that proved is that Frazier had a cast iron will, not chin. And that will to keep getting up even though helpless is admirable but deadly against a big lethal puncher like Lewis or Foreman. And while we're on the subject of chins, I'm getting a little irratated when people keep questioning Lewis' chin or claiming it is weak. Sure Lewis was koed twice but he was clobbered by two huge right hands from two big punchers and got back up on his feet just like Joe did. Plus Lennox was poorly prepared for those fights and clearly didn't take his opponents seriously. The second time around he did and look what happened. Lewis WOULD take Frazier seriously and properly prepare for him. I love Frazier but I think he might be in for a bad time in this one.

 

Respect to you JImBroughton for you post and opinion.

By the same rationale you could say that Frazier poorly prepared for George Foreman and didn't take him seriously in the 1973 title defense. In fact, Futch wanted him to postphone the fight because of the atmosphere of the Jamaica training camp. Too much partying and too little focus on the opponent. Do you think Frazier would do any better against Foreman had he paid him the same respect and attention as Ali? I strongly do. Futch changed Frazier's tactics in the 1976 rematch and he lasted five rounds against Foreman when he was practically shot as a fighter wearing contact lenses.

I don't believe Lewis beats Frazier, unless he faces the 1973 version that fought Foreman and knocks him out in the same fashion. Lennox Lewis is no George Foreman and he's not KOing Frazier based on the the way he backed up and jabbed in fear against a very faded Mike Tyson for six rounds. I think people underestimate, prime Frazier's body attack and head movement.

Yes ChrisPontius, Ali and others landed "truckloads" of punches against Frazier, but Frazier made Ali and many other miss "truckloads" of punches. Lennox, Foreman, Liston or any other big puncher certainly has a solid and favourable chance at stopping the prime Frazier from 1967 - 1970, but I'd bet on that Frazier to beat them all as well. Often forgotten is the fact that a bigger fighter provides more target for Frazier. He'd land those hooks to the body from both hands, and that's where I believe the difference would be in prime for prime matchups.

 

Why isn't Lewis no George Foreman? Do you mean in terms of aggression? In punching power I don't think there's a lot between them and Lewis, technically, is a better puncher than Foreman. He certainly doesn't throw punches in wild abandon as did prime Foreman.

Moreover, Lewis didn't always fight cautiously against perceived dangerous fighters. If Lewis hits Frazier hard and gets a reaction early he may well jump on him ala Ruddock or Golota. I also dispute your perception that Lewis 'jabbed in fear' against Tyson, which is a little ridiculous. That gives the impression that Lewis was jabbing to keep the dangerous Tyson off him, when in reality it was Lewis gradually wearing down a fighter, though badly faded, could still punch really hard. If Lewis had traded punches with Tyson and had gotten knocked out we'd all be saying how stupid he was. When he does the sensible thing and wears Tyson down utilizing his natural advantages he's 'jabbing in fear'. The man can't win in some people's eyes.

Lewis will give Frazier a lot of respect, as such a fighter warrants. This may mean that he elects to bomb him out as well as wearing him down gradually. That is one prime difference between them in this fight; Lewis has more than one way to win whereas Frazier probably has to stop Lewis by landing hooks to body and head. To do that he has to be in range and to get in range he will eat right hands and uppercuts. Can Frazier eat that punishment for 15 rounds? If you believe he can then he can win the fight.

I don't think he can...

 

I'm not sure why you're critizing Lewis's win against Tyson, I thought it was a text book way to fight him. In the first round he rocked Tyson with 3-4 uppercuts that Tyson himself said hurt him really bad. During the rest of the fight he muscled Tyson around, leaned on him and used his weight and size very effectively, so I don't know what you mean by "backed up and jabbed in fear" Those upper cuts sure as hell weren't thrown in fear, they had bad intentions written all over them.

Later on, after Lewis was interviewed about Manny's rant about getting Tyson the f&*% out of there, Lewis said he hurt his right hand in I believe the 2nd or 3rd round and he need timed to get used to the pain of punching all out with it. He also said he didn't see any point in pointing that out to a screaming Manny in between rounds.

Regardless, I thought it was a textbook victory, and after the fight Tyson himself said he could never beat Lewis in his prime. "Too big too strong" was basically what he said.

And I certainly think a prime Tyson would have a better chance of beating Lewis than Frazier would. So I think that fight shows more of what Lewis would do in terms of defeating someone like Frazier rather than indicate a reason as to why he would loose.

 

Nice post Doppleganger. Lennox Lewis is no George Foreman in terms of overall punching power and aggression. I will say that he's a much more tactical boxer with more atheleticism on his feet. Lewis is by no means as quick as Ali on his feet and gets caught by Frazier on the ropes more often than Ali was. Tyson was far from the same fighter going into that fight against Lewis weighing 240 lbs. The Tyson that fought big fighters Tucker, Mitch Green and James Smith would probably KO Lewis well inside the distance.

Prime Frazier made people miss with his head movement, bobbing, weaving, and yes sometimes slipping his shoulders on either side. Earlier in his career Frazier slipped more punches, until Futch had him bobbing and weaving more. Lewis's jab is definitely one of the best in heavyweight history, but it's not a sharp as Larry Holmes, or as fast as Ali's, whom Frazier made miss a lot of jabs.

Maybe I'm coming down on Lennox because he didn't look impressive in some fights, barely escaping with victory. Frank Bruno beat him around the ring for seven rounds before getting careless, dropping his hands and getting knocked out by a Lewis right hand. Shannon Briggs had him in serious trouble twice in the early rounds of their fight only to punch himself out. We all saw McCall and Rahman knock Lewis out, but I'll give him all the credit for coming back and stopping them both. I still don't believe he beat Evander Holyfield in the rematch and that decision was given to him because of Eugenia Williams ineptitude, amateurish scoring and loyalty to Don King.

Lennox sure looked overconfident in those moments where he looked like he was on the brink of defeat but his greatness bailed him out. Now, against Lewis, replace Briggs with Frazier and I don't think Lewis would have made it out of those early rounds where Briggs hurt him. Frazier never punches himself out inside four rounds because he was conditioned to punch repeatedly for fifteen rounds. If Frazier is still there in the seventh round like Frank Bruno, this is when he becomes more dangerous because his pace increases. I don't think Lewis makes it past 10 rounds with a prime Frazier. He'd be on the receiving end of more body shots that he never faced in his entire career. Evander didn't do a whole lot of slipping, and weaving and he made Lennox miss punches in the second fight. Why wouldn't Frazier be able to get close against this version of Lewis and hurt him? His head movement, pressure and pace is also something that Lewis has never faced in his entire career. The only way Lewis beats Frazier is by facing the same version that got destroyed by Foreman in 1973 with Mercante playing a blind eye to George's illegal, pushing, shoving and grabbing of the shoulders.