Joe Frazier '71 vs. Larry Holmes '82

Once again Larry had the flu going into that Weaver fight. That affected his performance that said there should have been a rematch! So I will say that’s on Larry. I do think in the Witherspoon and Williams’s fights he had started to decline.

 

Andrew you are new here, welcome.
However I do not see your reply to my post.
I thought you may have accidentally buried it within mine, but it is missing there too.

 

How much better was he in his prime than he was as a sparring partner? His sparring partner era ended around the time of his first fight with Shavers, and he seemed to be in final form by that fight.

I assume he found easy work as a sparring partner because he was actually good and was a reasonable Ali-type analogue (fast mobile out-fighter).

 

There was a rematch, in which Holmes dominated the entire fight and KO'd Weaver. It was 21 years later (I wonder if that is a record), but hey, it did happen.

 

Holmes did NOT lose to Witherspoon or Williams. The Witherspoon fight there were a few close rounds but Holmes won MANY more if you watch the fight. People didn’t like Holmes and were rooting for the underdog so when Holmes Caught a hard right hand he lost that round and the round after, but in actuality Holmes only lost maybe 3 or 4 rounds the whole fight. He got thumbed and his eye blew up so some people gave Witherspoon some closer “comparison rounds” that Holmes still won if you actually looked at what was happening.

Williams? He fought close with Holmes behind a good jab through round 10 and then faded and Holmes dominated the late rounds even hurting him badly. I don’t know what fight you were watching if you say Williams clearly won. Wasn’t even that close. Holmes won that one by 4-5 rounds. Williams just did better than people expected.

And Witherspoon at that point was twice the fighter Bonavena was who dropped Frazier and was robbed of the decision.

I see people on here saying Frazier had a better chin than Holmes… uh no.
Frazier was faster… uh double no
Frazier hit harder… maybe with the left hook, but Holmes right was just as hard.
Frazier fought better opponents… no way.
Frazier’s only really big win over a great fighter was vs. Ali in the FOTC. The rest were so-so. Few were undefeated.

Ali post comeback used to lay on the ropes most of the fight and let fighters punch themselves out. That’s why Frazier gave him trouble, because he could sustain an attack for many rounds if you laid there. One fighter (Holmes) rates a 10 on a 10 scale and one rates maybe a 7.

 

i like your analysis, but the conclusion that it would be down to the wire is off. Prime Holmes stops any version of Frazier late or possibly early if Holmes lands one of those bog rights before Frazier gets going. No doubt.

 

He didn't lose to either, on the scorecards or in reality. Watch the fights again, paying particular attention to the last rounds of each. They both surprised a lot of people, but neither definitively drew, much less won.

People freaked during the Witherspoon fight because they were expecting an easy fight for Holmes.

And btw, neither of those fights were during Holmes' prime. His prime ended with Cobb.

 

Witherspoon vs Holmes is very overrated as a controversial decision I've said it many times, Witherspoon lost a majority of the first 6 rounds, then gave away the last couple of rounds doing his Ali impression when the fight was in the balance.

Williams however has a better case for deserving the nod vs Holmes, that indeed was a very close fight which easily could of gone to Williams.

 

I'm with you on the Witherspoon, but Williams gave away too many of the later rounds imo. I never had it less than 2 points for Holmes.

 

I scored Holmes/Williams a draw last time I scored it, for me the fight was very easy to score in the 2nd half. But the 1st half had alot of tight rounds that could of gone either way.

Williams was certainly ahead in the early going, but it all depends how dominant you thought Williams was in the 1st half, to decide whether or not you think he deserved the nod.

 

For what it's worth here was my scorecards on both fights @RulesMakeItInteresting

Larry Holmes vs Carl Williams

1 Williams
2 Williams
3 Even
4 Holmes
5 Williams
6 Williams
7 Holmes
8 Holmes
9 Holmes
10 Williams
11 Williams
12 Holmes
13 Williams
14 Holmes
15 Holmes

143-143 Draw

I've only seen this fight once and it was years ago and i never scored it, my impression was the 1st time i watched it. Was that Carl Williams won the fight, having watched it again i scored it a draw.

I remembered Williams dominating the first half of the fight, and Holmes dominating the championship rounds. But when i watched it again that wasn't quite the case.

Williams for certain won the early rounds outjabbing Holmes, but Holmes still kept it somewhat competitive in the early going. Because at times Williams would only just throw the jab, and i think Holmes nicked some of the early rounds with his right hand and body shots.

The 9th round was Holmes best round of the fight as he hurt Williams with a body shot, and landed some good right hands that may of stunned Williams. But i felt like after Holmes after having few strong rounds 7, 8, 9. He allowed the momentum to shift back to Williams. As Williams outjabbed Holmes from the outside again.

Now going into the 12th i remembered it as Holmes dominating the last 4 rounds, but that wasn't quite the case. Yes Holmes upped the pace and landed some good body shots, but he certainly didn't dominate. It was more that Williams coasted maybe thinking he'd won the fight, although i still think Williams won the 13th round. But Holmes for me won 3 out of the last 4 rounds, to do enough for a draw on my card.

Final thoughts there was atleast 2 rounds that could of gone either, as you can see i scored the 3rd round even. As i couldn't split them in that round.


Larry Holmes vs Tim Witherspoon

1 Holmes
2 Witherspoon
3 Holmes
4 Holmes
5 Holmes
6 Holmes
7 Witherspoon
8 Witherspoon
9 Witherspoon
10 Witherspoon
11 Holmes
12 Holmes

115-113 Holmes

So watching this fight again years later my mind hasn't changed that much, i still felt Larry Holmes was a clear winner. I even gave Witherspoon some of the close debatable rounds 2 and 8.

But anyway the way i see the first 6 rounds, was similar to Norton/Holmes. Although Holmes wasn't winning them rounds quite as convincingly as he did in the Norton fight. But he was still doing more punching and more jabbing than Witherspoon, who for me just coasted too much for long periods in the early rounds, i gave Witherspoon the 2nd round because i liked his body punching in that round. He landed atleast 5 solid body punches, and Holmes's right hand at the end of the round. Wasn't enough to negate the solid body punching of Witherspoon that round.

But apart from that i couldn't see a round to give to Witherspoon in the first 6 rounds, i remember the 5th round being somewhat competitive. But Holmes in the first 6 rounds was just more active than Witherspoon landing the jab, while Witherspoon was just following Holmes around the ring not punching.

The 7th round Witherspoon finally picked up the pace, similar to how Norton did vs Holmes. And he landed some solid shots in the 7th, the only round i felt Witherspoon won convincingly to that point, the 8th round was competitive and i could see an argument for Holmes winning it. But like the 2nd round i liked Witherspoon's body punches in that round.

We all know about the famous 9th round, which is comparable to Norton/Holmes 15th round. Where Norton dominated most of the round, and Holmes comeback towards the end. Amazing round but a round Witherspoon clearly won.

I thought Witherspoon edged the 10th round but not alot happened, apart from Witherspoon's Ali impression.

But for me the last 2 rounds Holmes clearly out punched and did more work than Witherspoon, who for me just coasted the last 2 rounds and did nothing.

It just amazes me that after Witherspoon had his best round of the fight in the 9th round, he virtually did nothing after that round. And was more interested in doing his Ali impression, rather than really taking it to the champion.

I just can't see how you can have Witherspoon winning this fight, he coasted too much for long periods in this fight. You can't lose majority of the first 6 rounds, and then give away the last 2 rounds doing an Ali impression, and expect to take the title away from the champion.

Overall i enjoyed the fight alot, i really enjoyed the tactical aspect of the fight. But i think it's overrated as a controversial decision, i even gave Witherspoon the benefit of the doubt giving him 2 debatable rounds, and Holmes was still a clear winner on my card. So my mind hasn't changed much on this in all honesty.

One last point the commentary was terrible, some of the most biased commentating i've heard in some time. Angelo Dundee didn't call 1 good moment from Holmes, instead he was too busy drooling over Witherspoon who he thought reminded him of Archie Moore, Ken Norton, Sugar Ray Robinson, his words not mine.

 

Great post! I gave the 3rd and 13th to Holmes in the Williams, and I lean toward Holmes in the 10th of the Spoon fight, though I've scored it even once or twice. I thought the 8th was Larry, too. To me Tim kind of took a vacation and showed his immaturity in the last rounds of that fight. And I completely agree, Dundee was ridiculous calling that fight, on a par with Cosell during the Cobb. Maybe that was Angelo showing his resentment for having to stop the Ali fight...forgive if that seems unfair of me to hypothesize.

 

Frazier's lefthook was more powerful than anything in Holmes arsenal. Chins? They both have good chins but with Joe's style and the # of punches he had to take it's as least as good as Holmes's beard. We don't know if Larry could have taken the punches Frazier took. The reverse isn't true.

 

I love Holmes but '71 Frazier would have been bad medicine for him. Just too relentless, powerful, non stop attack with fast footwork, head movement, and killer body blows. That pace would have been too much, and Holmes loses a decision even if he isn't stopped.