Joe Frazier And His 70's Opposition...

Those are good points but didn't several of those fights take place in the 60's? I think Frazier peaked against Ali in their first fight and didn't do that well in the 70's after that.

 

Frazier is one dude who will utterly destroy anybody who is not a great fighter.

The worst fighters to beat him were Ali and Foreman. Like Marciano he would chew up and spit out anybody who was just world class.

 

To correct a couple of factual errors, actually, Ali did beat Quarry twice, and he stopped Ellis in 12.

Anyway, yes, Frazier did considerably better than Ali against a lot of the same opponents during the '70s, though obviously by far the biggest gap between their results against any opponent is against Foreman, which falls in Ali's favor. All-in-all, it must be admitted that, given his 1960s and 1970s accomplishments, Ali was a greater fighter than Frazier, but the people who rank Ali #1 of all time and somehow have Frazier at the tail end of or even outside the top 10 should take a very close look at these guys' results against each other and most of the same opponents, as it will show them how small the gap between Ali and Frazier really is.

 

You do have some points, but your comparison is also flawed in some respects. Just because Ali took longer against Mathis and Ellis doesn't necessarily mean that he had more trouble against them. Ali didn't go for the KO as Frazier did and could utterly outclass opponents even while stopping them late or going the distance.

I think Ali was utterly dominant against Quarry, especially the second time. And the first fight only lasted 3 rounds (shorter, I think, than any of Frazier's fights against him). And wasn't Quarry stopped because of cuts in both fights against Frazier? Ali had him thoroughly out on his feet in the second fight when the ref stepped in.

And the only reason Mathis wasn't KO'd was that Ali was afraid of hurting him and just gently tapped him when he was out on his feet in the 11:th and 12:th round.

Also, it seems like Frazier had a harder time with Bugner than Ali did.
Taking that into consideration I would have it as follows:

Fighters that Frazier was more impressive against: Foster, Chuvalo

Fighters that Ali was more impressive against: Bonavena, Bugner, Foreman

Fighters that they were more or less equally impressive against: Mathis, Quarry, Ellis

You could make a point for moving Ellis to the Frazier column, but you could also make point for moving Quarry to the Ali column. Personally, I feel they both were dominant against these opponents according to their own style.

Also the most marked difference in perfomance are the ones against Foreman. Ali, after all, beat both Foster and Chuvalo quite comfortably while Frazier was very clearly beaten by Foreman on two occasions. All in all, Ali comes out on top in this comparison IMO.

 

But he was stopped on cuts in both fights against Frazier, wasn't he? Anyway, this is a moot point since I feel that they both were dominant against him. I think Ali won every round he ever fought against Quarry, clearly. And he had the first fight after a 3,5 year lay-off. Don't really know how you can improve on those perfomances.

 

Here's the thing,

Ali also fought:

Norton
Lyle
Shavers
Young

And beat those fighters. He also beat Foreman and FRAZIER himself....

Not to undermine Joe but he's got nothing on Ali if you're taking about resume, and I prefer Frazier (swarmers in general) as a fighter.

 

Joe Bugner was another fighter that faced both men, Ali 2 times, all fights went the distance but Frazier dropped Bugner in the 10th but Bugner got up

 

As one poster already pointed out, I really don't see Frazier getting extra points for beating some of their common opponents faster or by KO as opposed to a decision or late stoppage. Frazier and Ali were two totally different animals. One of them was a puncher/swarmer while the other was a pure boxer. Its natural for the outcomes to be a bit different when comparing fighters of polar opposite styles. Furthermore, another fact that I'm not sure has been addressed yet ( or maybe I didn't see it on the thread) was that Ali was actually at his perspective peak before going into exhile for four years. This is a huge factor if anyone asks me. He returned and in only his first fight in 4 years TKO'd Quarry in two rounds or something to that effect. Not too shaby. Frazier also fought an inactive Ellis who hadn't fought in 17 months, whereas Jimmy was actually fighting more frequently against a slightly past prime Ali. Chalk it up with the fact that Ali beat way more rated fighters in the 70's including ones that Frazier either couldn't beat or didn't fight, and I fail to see where Frazier has a leg up on Ali.

 

2-1 against Norton. I think I'm one of the few who didn't have a problem with the decision in the third fight. close fight that could have gone either way.

And I also think Ali beat Shavers.

 

Yeah I've heard the arguments about Ali possibly being gifted decisions against Norton and Young, but Shavers is a new one to me. I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that Ali-Shavers was a robbery.

 

Two completely different fighters with two completely different styles. Frazier would chew you up and spit you out, Ali would outbox you and try to make you look stupid.

It's perfectly understandable why Frazier would usually finish of his common opponents quicker than Ali normally would. It shouldn't be used as an analysis in terms of comparing the two.

All that matters is if they actually won their fights not how they did it.

Another example would be to look at Foreman's common opponents with Ali's and what do you get?

Foreman:
Chuvalo KO3
Frazier KO2, KO5
Norton KO2

Again Foreman was a monster so it isn't surprising that he KOed their common opponents whilst Ali would generally outpoint them.

 

Yeah, the that this arguemnt can be made for is Foreman. He was definitely more impressive against Frazier and Norton as well as against Chuvalo. Ali probably looked somewhat better againss Young and Lyle, but far from as clear cut.

Obvious advantage to Foreman here.