Joe Frazier discussion- "Final goodbye"

Not because you have a different opinion. I don't agree with Rules post either. My issue is with your dismissive comment "stop that" and laughing reaction like it was absurd and not even worthy of your time. You used to do as Kamikaze as well before being permabanned. You need to learn how to respectfully disagree with people more often as opposed to making fun of them merely because they have a different view.

 

Eddie Futch knew that George was a big strong young fighter but he didn't anticipate Foreman being able to push Joe back like that. 3 or 4 steps then catch Joe coming back in. Eddie is as sharp as they get but that one caught him off guard.

 

Great point re Futch.

Interesting, since Foreman was already known and warned for pushing in prev. fights - so strong, he literally threw Chuvalo half way across the ring - but it was most heavily pronounced and effective vs Frazier - more strongly implied to be a substantive, pre-med tactic than in previous fights, - and one that was particularly tailored to Joe.

I guess it’s a tactic that isn’t easily remedied if at all - the best you could do probably is put the ref. on notice to look out for same and duly caution/deduct.

I’ve read some suggest more or less re the pushing that it’s “part of the game” but IMO, George took it OTT - and without it, a fight with Joe would be that much tougher.

Clinching is an acceptable tactic in due proportion and context also but Ali’s own OTT employment of same in Frazier II to snuff Joe out in close was appalling - a tactic maybe somewhat analogous to Foreman’s unfair pushing/manhandling nullification of Joe - though Foreman’s MO wasn’t as protracted - but it likely would’ve been if Joe had lasted longer.

 

One of the greatest Never knew the word quit R.I.P' Smokin'Joe

 

Eddie had been with Frazier for many years and he knew how strong Joe was. Frazier was a tank. That I'm guessing is why he didn't expect that tactic to be so effective.

 

I was lucky enough to meet him in Dallas several years ago along with Earnie Shavers & Jake La Motta at a Black Tie affair they were great guys very friendly had a great time

 

Gotcha - not so much a surprise tactic as it was a surprise that Foreman had the strength to 1) even consider and actually employ it and 2) pull it off so stunningly well against a robust, one gear (forward) fighter like Joe.

That’s why I cited Chuvalo who was a tank and pretty strong himself - crazy how a young 21 yo Foreman moved George with such relative ease. It’s impossible to guess accurately - but I think even before the first round was out that Chuvalo was looking somewhat shocked and distressed by the shocking raw strength and punching power of Foreman.

I think there’s two types of “strength” also - 1) The durability and power to go forward unabated in a clean punching fight and 2) literal strength in the form of deliberate holding, pushing and manhandling in general.

People often cite the strength of Sonny Liston - I’ve no doubt Sonny was very strong in the absolute sense - but I must say that he boxed and punched for the most part - his demonstrable “strength” mainly being his durability and power allowing him to move forward and “push” back.

Foreman had the perfect combination of express intention, size, height, reach, strength and technique to seriously move Joe - pushing at his shoulders (vulnerable point) with either both hands or just one to spin Joe and put him off balance.

If you’re not counter engaging in the same hands on mode as Foreman did, it’s makes you that much easier meat though Joe would always suffer for being the smaller and less strong guy against Big George.

Ali figured George well, Muhammad plenty strong himself but of course not as strong as Foreman, Ali took his own available opportunities to manhandle and shove Foreman around a bit when George wasn’t ready for it - and not just in the later stages.

That combined with many other features to his game allowed Ali to prevail over Foreman in Zaire - a fight that is often grossly oversimplified down to the rope a dope and Foreman eventually keeling over from his own efforts and the heat.

 

I thought Yank Durham was Frazier trainer? Was it really Futch that was responsible for all the training and fight strategies and Durham the Bundini Brown type cheerleader in the corner cos no one ever mentions him?

 

Every fight has clinches, even a lot of them. Watch the early rounds of Lewis-Tyson. Lennox clinched him every single time he got close. Shoving is different. I've seen few fighters shove but how Foreman made it work was devastating.

 

You do know that putting both hands on someone and shoving them away is against the rules and could get you disqualified by the ref if you carry on doing it?

 

George was never disqualified.

 

Yeah the ref was probably too afraid to get between them and do his job properly but you hardly get anyone shoving people like that now without getting warned