Joe Frazier (FOTC version) vs Lennox Lewis (late 90s)

Your debate with Magoo here re: Lewis's prime gets to the heart of why it is so difficult assessing his resume/legacy.

When exactly was his prime? What was his best 5 year patch or sequence of victories? With Lennox these are very challenging questions.

Much more so than other consensus ATGs whose prime is easy to define.

 

Good depth of opinion but a couple of questions stand out

1. How many fights did Frazier come off the canvas to win?

2. How many people come off the canvas against Lewis and won?

I really can't see Frazier winning if he's down at all, and i must say i think Lewis is a very big ask stylistically for Frazier. You make some comparisons to Ali, but Lewis had something Ali didn't - the power to put Joe Frazier into a deep slumber. As for Lewis not being aggressive take a look at him vs some dangerous early round fighters.

 

The right hand or the uppercut were there to land on Frazier. Lewis had all time ability in both punches. Lewis was far stronger and could control Joe in a clinch with ease. Lewis has the size, a jab that can stop a man in his tracks, and knows Fraizer only has one punch. And Frazier is going to be running into Lewis power. Yikes.

Frazier had a great hook, but that's was pretty much it. The cross, the jab, and the uppercut were not used or featured much. Lewis had no issues with Tommy Morrison. Mike Tyson's, or Tua's left hook. None. Frazier hook wasn’t as hard as these three. A tough match up for Frazier. I am surprised at how many thing Frazier would win.

I like Lewis via TKO/KO inside of six rounds.

 

Nice response. However, like I said before, Lennox Lewis is no Ali and doesn't have the hand or foot speed to beat Frazier. The only version of Frazier I can see Lewis blowing out is the same one that got blown out by Foreman. Even still, Lewis doesn't have the killer instinct Foreman has which makes it hard for me to believe he would have knocked out Frazier. If Lewis, unlike Foreman lets Joe get out of the second round in 1973, Frazier probably wears him down and stops him late. Other than that, he gets knocked out late or loses a unanimous decision to the FOTC or PRE FOTC Joe Frazier. Lewis wouldn't be able to handle the head movement, pressure and relentless body attack of the early Joe Frazier. Ali missed a lot of punches in the FOTC and Frazier was known to be a difficult target to hit cleanly. Lewis is a great athelete and has one of the strongest right hands in heavyweight history, but he wouldn't be able to catch Frazier cleanly and consistently.

 

I disagree completely. I have most of Lewis' fights on tape and while in his 30's he was slow and powerful, he was actually damn quick in his mid 20's. And if Lewis wanted to go after a fighter such as Gotola, or Ruddock..he was plenty fast of foot and hand.

The main advantage Lewis has is his size and more importantly his excellent ability to use his size to his advantage. This means using his strength, power, and reach to his best advantage.

In my opinion he would simply overpower the game Frazier in fairly short order. In my opinion the Tyson fight was a blue print of what would happen, only I think Tyson's additional 30lbs and his outstanding ability to take a punch kept him in the fight longer than it would Frazier. It's basically a stylistic nightmare for Frazier, who would be coming forward right into Lewis' power zone and would likely eat one too many uppercuts. I just don't envision Frazier getting in on the inside and unleashing left hooks on a repeatable basis. Nor have I ever seen anyone drop Lewis with a sustained body attack which some have mentioned. If Frazier did manage to get in on the inside, to the point of hurting Lewis or causing him concern, then I think he'd revert to plan B, which would be to stay on the outside and use his jab and his overhand right to keep Frazier at bay.

 

I have the utmost respect for Smokin' Joe. Heck, a few years ago I met him at the Absecon Diner real late one saturday night. He was pretty hammered and with some heavyset redheaded broad. Really cool dude - never rebukes a fan or turns down a handshake. Still even hates Ali who he still calls "Clay." Anyway, I would have to go with LL here by kayo. Too big, too much power.

Lewis by 6th round kayo.

 

These are interesting questions, that possibly conceal a can of worms to me.

Frazier did come off the canvas against Bonavena. He also kept getting up against Foreman when any other fighter would have been in a hospital bed.

IF he had been knocked down by a single shot versus one of his lesser opponents he would have got up and won. Its just that he was too good for that. Surely, that shouldnt count against him.

Some more questions.

1. How many fights did Lewis come off the canvas to win.
2 How many of Lewis's career opponents could match '71 Fraziers combination of punch output, physical conditioning, and will-to-win.

And a final observation: '71 Frazier on his best night clearly had an excellent chin. Around this time Ali effectively knocked out Bonavena with a single left hook, when noone else could do anything with Bonavena.

Ali put everything into knocking Frazier out early, and with his speed, punch output and deceptiveness had some success with landing.

However, it is a key observation that Frazier not only never went down, he never appeared to be hurt at all during the contest, not even for a moment.

 

Interesting points. I remember less skilled fighters, Oliver Mcall, Frank Bruno, Shannon Briggs and Hasim Rahman, giving Lewis trouble. What's the difference between Joe Frazier giving Lewis trouble and these fighters that don't even come close to Frazier in terms of overall skill?

Watch Joe Frazier from his early career, 1966 up to the FOTC. There's never been another heavyweight that punched off the angles and moved his head more consistently than Frazier. Don't use George Foreman as an example in comparing a fight with Lennox and Frazier. Lennox would have big trouble with the late 1960's Frazier because he wouldn't be able to catch him as clean. Lennox Lewis is no Ali and he wouldn't be able to backup fast enough to keep Frazier off of him. George Foreman didn't face the same Frazier that exhibited the relentless pressure and body attack that was paramount against his earlier opponents. Frazier was actually a smarter boxer than most give him credit for and he would jab inside to counter his opponents and work the body. A lot of people are quick to conclude that Frazier was just left-hook alone and nothing else which isn't true. Quarry, Bugner, Ellis and Ali were all on the receiving ends of solid right hands that Frazier threw.

Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson should have fought much earlier and both men are responsible for not getting that fight done. That being said, Lewis' win against Tyson wasn't as impressive IMO. Tyson was way off at that point in his career, put too much weight on and showed no quickness to get inside on Lennox Lewis. Prime Joe Frazier at 204 - 207 lbs would KO Lewis inside 10 rounds with a vicious body assault.

 

Frazier most likely but it depends how the fight is fought. If Lennox tries the usual and takes his time and jabs Frazier he will most likely get stopped or lose a decision once Frazier starts smokin'. Lennox's best chance is to go right after Frazier from the opening round which isn't his usual strategy and then its a closer fight and could go either way much more likely.

 

I don't think Joe Frazier beat a prime Muhammad Ali in 1971. Age-wise, Ali was young, but having had only two fights in about four years was clearly detrimental to Ali's skills and conditioning. The fight would have been a different story if that had been a 1967 version of Ali in the ring with Joe that night. The 1967 version of Ali would have been able to move and dance all night like the '71 version did so effectively for the first two rounds. It was a good win for Joe, but Joe Frazier didn't beat a peak Muhammad Ali.

And I think a Lennox Lewis fight would be a bad, bad matchup for Joe Frazier. A big guy like Lewis who could crack with both hands would be a tough assignment for Joe.

 

I disagree. I don't recall anyone causing Lewis any serious damage with a bodyshot. Nor do I recall Lewis allowing much smaller fighters to back him up, on a consistent basis. In fact I can't think of one fighter who backed Lewis up on a sustained basis, and he fought both smaller swamers and big powerful athletic fights such as Grant, Golota, Ruddock, etc. If these guys aren't backing him up, no way Frazier, with his 40lb weight disadvantage and less powerful punches is going to be the first.

And while Tyson was admittedly past his prime, it was the strategy Lewis used that leads me to believe he'd beat Frazier. It wasn't just that he one, but he also used his size by leaning on Tyson and threw upper cuts that had Tyson hurt after the first round. In fact, Lewis was roughing up Tyson to the point of getting a deduction. So this leads me to believe you won't see the passive Lewis in the ring, he'd be in seek and destroy mode.

 

Can nobody here see Lewis getting KO'd early with one shot? I think Frazier punches as hard as McCall or Rahman - and certainly more often and with more accuracy.

I don't think Lewis could KO Frazier early without putting himself at a HUGE risk of getting KO'd himself. Keep in mind that the "young, aggressive, tiger-like" Lewis that was KO'ing guys left and right early in his career was the same Lewis that McCall iced.

 

Lewis rips Fraizers head of within 4 rounds.

 

I think both fighters are being sold a little short here. Lennox has a good chance of beating prime Frazier, but no one is going to repeat the demolition Foreman ripped Frazier that night in Jamaica.

Lewis' stance would serve him well. I reckon he'll be holding that right hand close to his cheek, left hand extended just like in the Tommy Morrison scrap. I don't see Lewis as a fighter terribly affected by hooks, but Frazier's is the division's best and I expect him to wobble Lewis once or twice if the fight is protracted for whatever reason.

I disagree with an earlier post suggesting that Lennox put his weight on Joe's shoulders. Lewis has many options in this fight actually. He can clinch him, rough him up inside or even shake him using his great size, but never should he rest on Frazier's shoulders. For starters, it opens him up to the body attack, and once Joe dips his upper body, Lewis will fall forward and get a left to the head for his trouble. He must protect his chin at all times if he has any desire to win the match. It wasn't quite glass as people sometimes describe, but it sure wasn't made of the same stuff as Ali.

Lewis by TKO if he can land uppercuts. He should let his jab linger and rip Joe Frazier with uppercuts.