Joe Frazier (FOTC version) vs Lennox Lewis (late 90s)

I'll agree with you such that Ali was slightly past his prime, but he wasn't as far off his prime as most people would suggest. I'd say Frazier was further off his prime against George Foreman as opposed to Ali being past his prime against Frazier. The 1971 Ali was a different fighter than the 1960's version but Frazier beat the closest version of Ali to his prime years.

If the whole draft issue with Ali never happened and history changed, I think the real FOTC would have happened in 1967 or 1968. Yank Durham said Frazier was ready for Ali at this time, but he knew the only way to beat him was in the ring.

It's funny how Henry Cooper in losing was given big time credit for being able to floor the 1960's "prime" version of Ali, having him seriously hurt, yet Frazier's 1971 win is discredited because Ali wasn't at his best?

Don't use Cleveland Williams as the measuring stick. That version of Williams was nowhere near the early 1960's contender he was. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Cleveland Williams had a serious incident being shot by a patrol officer in the stomach a year before his fight with Ali.

Fact is, 1960's Ali was faster on his feet and slightly faster as a puncher, but he hit nowhere near as hard as the early 1970's Ali. As for a fight with Frazier in the late 1960's, I'd still say Frazier would have caught him, floored him and likely would have won a unanimous decision.

Frazier KO'd Manuel Ramos with a body shot, and he was a fighter who stood 6' 3 weighing 230lbs. I can't see anything different with Lennox Lewis. Frazier would still work his way inside on Lewis, double the hooks to the body and head, and he wouldn't neglect his right hand as well. I seriously doubt that Lewis would be able to handle a prime Joe Frazier's work rate.

Frazier KO's Lewis between rounds 8 and 11, or wins via unanimous decision.

 

In all fairness, this was not a prime and certainly not a peak version of Ali either. Cooper floored Ali in 1963 not in 1967. Ali was around 20 years old and had all but 18 pro fights. He did not reach his best until having the experience of beating guys like Liston, Patterson, Williams, Terrell and Foley. Its kind of like people trying to make a case that Tyson looked bad against Tillis, then comparing him to what people might have done to him later in his championship days because of it.

Big difference.

 

Not anyone who's not unbiased. Taking two of Lewis' worst fights to use as a projection of what would lilkely happen if Lewis and Frazier met is a poor way to analysis any fight. If it were that simple, then both, Rahman and McCall would have repeated these knock outs in the rematch.

Cause if Rahman did it the first time, why couldn't he simply have repeated what he did in the first fight.

Of course the answer is because every fight is different and one can't simply project one aspect of a fighters career and assume it's going to be repeated again.

Better to take into account Lewis' whole body of work when analysising these two fighters. Of course the same applies to Frazier, which is why Lewis would be unlikely to repeat what Foreman did against him in their first fight.

In addition to all that, I believe it was over hand rights that caught Lewis on both occassions, something Frazier isn't noted for.

 

Good post.

Frazier was known for the left hook as being by far his best weopon. Not a particularly useful tool against Lewis who never seemed to struggle with fighters who utilized it. Additionally, while I feel that size isn't everything, it does account for something, especially if the bigger man is also a very talented all time great. It's not out of the question for Joe Frazier to beat Lennox Lewis but its probably not an outcome that I would favor.

 

Id never count smoke out of any fight because he's one of if not the toughest men in heavyweight history but if the Lennox of the Ruddock fight turns up i feel he would be to much for joe, he had the size and power like foreman and although lennox showed more caution than big George when he felt threaten he came out of his shell and went to work and not many ATG'S beat that Lewis. Infact i would only pick Ali for sure to win and maybe holmes with his great jab and chin and all round boxing skills and both can nearly match lennox in the size department.

 

To be frank, Lewis annihilates Joe in my book, if he comes in looking for a quick night.

 

Interesting point about the Cooper and Frazier knockdowns. The Cassius Clay of 1963 was not a prime Ali. Not even the best version we ever saw of him. He was approaching his prime years,which were still two/three years off.
The Ali of FOTC was still an awesome incarnation of Muhammad,but not the best seventies aspect of him. The window of 1972-74 saw Ali at his 'second career' best.

As far as this thread goes,I'm torn on it. If Lewis comes out quickly and nails Frazier early,he could finish the job rapidly. However,if Lennox starts cautiously and allows Joe to come into the fight,and backs the Brit up,pressuring him,then it's a late round Frazier tko.

 

I think Lewis' best chance lies in comming out of the blocks aggressively and trying to get Joe outta there early. He is big and can punch and he would be wise in putting those attributes to work early. The question is would he? Even if he tried to, prime Frazier was rather difficult to tag cleanly, especially when he got his rhythm. Joe slipped quire a few of Ali's shots and Ali had faster, more accurate hands than Lennox did. Would Lewis reteat into a defensive posture after tasting a few of Joe's hooks? If he does then he plays into Frazier's hands for the longer the fight goes the better Frazier's chances become. Is this a 15 round fight? That's something else to consider. Lewis never fought 15 rounds so he might try to conserve his energy and hope to outbox Joe who is a proven 15 round fighter. Lewis certainly has a shot in this one but I'll still go with Frazier by decision. If Lennox wins then it's by ko early. Possible....but not likely.

 

That was my thinking when I posted my opinion on this thread some 5 years ago.. Lewis was only stopped by right hands, and regularly ate left hookers for breakfast.. He was a good 5-6 inches taller than Frazier and on an average night, would outweight him by a good 30 lbs or more.. He also had the kind of power in both hands that Frazier's chin wasn't made for, and a pretty damn good jab and footwork.... I don't see anything that Joe has to offer Lennox, with the exception of shear heart and will power, which doesn't help much when you're doing little other than just getting your ass kicked.

 

Yeah, I see it the same. Frazier's calling card was to outman the other guy, basically to wear his opponents down through attrition.

Now, as you say, Lewis is by FAR the bigger man, and also a guy that hits like hell.
To outgut and outfight Lewis, Frazier is going to have to be landing a lot more punches on Lewis than vice-versa, and given how much of a size disadvantage Frazier is at, and how he was not a dynamite puncher nor a fast, explosive fighter, it's going to be a long night getting through the jab, the grab and the uppercuts/right hands.
He also showed a startling lack of self-preservation against Foreman, being wholly unable to tie his man up and gain a breather.

I love Joe, but this could turn ugly quickly, or turn into a lopsided, painful dissection that sees the fight getting stopped later. I'm guessing the former though, if Lewis fancies it.

 

Absolutely.

This isnt a remotely competitive fight, to be brutally honest. That has much more to do with Lewis' size, physical attributes, skill, power, etc. than anything Frazier lacked as a fighter on his own merit.

 

Coin toss of a fight.

Lewis has shown he can be knocked out by a single shot. Frazier has shown he can be bombed out by a bigger man.

Lewis is one of the greatest outfighters in history. Frazier is one of the greatest infighters in history.

I can't favour either man so I sit on the fence and call it a draw.

 

One thing Frazier has to trouble Lewis is pace. The best chance he has, imo, is to use his workrate, gluttony for punishment and tremendous fighting heart to set a pace big men can't follow.

Surefire predictions are for fortune-tellers, but say Frazier's chin holds up -- Lewis would have to clinch often and well. He's strong enough to do so. Being tired by the pace or overly delicate as he sometimes was might prevent him from doing so, however.

Should Frazier be able to take/slip Lennox' offense early, it could be an interesting night.

 

Size is far from everything, but in the case of a fighter of Lewis' caliber, I think it stacks the deck in his favor. Even today, people still underestimate the physical strength of Lennox and how heavy his hands were. He's got the hardest jab in history for my money, harnessed by an 84" reach. It's a battering ram. His right cross comparatively speaking, is among the most underrated. If Lewis isnt keeping him off and punishing him from a safe distance, he saps untold amounts of energy from his opponent simply by locking him up. I believe it was Holyfield who stated it felt like being covered in a cement blanket.

 

I agree. But there's times when frazier would slip that jab and pummel lewis to the body. I think lewis wins the first half but frazier wins the second half. Too tough to call.