Joe Frazier H2H???

He could have continued.

I'm not protesting the stoppage, by the way. It was justified because Frazier would just have been badly beaten. But his physical condition alone didn't merit a stoppage.

 

Thank you. Common sense here. I mean Ali definitely declined. And of course it was significant to notice in many aspects. It's interesting analyzing Ali. I analyze prime's differently than most I think. Somewhat like Chris does. While Ali wasn't at his peak, I think the ring-rust, possible overconfidence could have did at him. I think Ali from 72-73 that was cleaning out the division was finding a rhythm that the 70-71 Ali didn't really have. I would argue this Ali was probably better because of this... event though he was older.

 

Thanks,

I have this vague memory of both of us taking him on, but what good did it do? I'm glad I cut off the discussion when I did, because next he would have claimed that Frazier was washed up by the time he fought in the olympics.

 

Eh, I disagree. I used to think this until I made the video I did. His legs were looking real bad at the last knockdown. Worse than they were in the first few knockdowns. I'm sure he could've kept trucking and got up almost every-time. At a point he could've been badly hurt or actually KOed (Although he was seeing most of these punches at times so this might not have happened).

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4-WjL8jIyQ[/ame]

Around 3:40

 

Yep, I've had many run-ins with round15. Avid Frazier fan. At one point he was saying his prime was 68-70 and not even included the FOTC. He would say well up to the FOTC... as if a non-peak Frazier beat Ali. Was getting interesting.

 

These anecdotes hardly constitute concrete evidence.

More importantly, though, whywould this change the fight? Ok, Ali might have slipped a handful more left hooks, and been able to keep Smokes off of him for a little longer with his increased mobility. Would that have reversed the outcome?

The way you have to look at it is this: You need to ask why Frazier won, and determine whether those factors were present in '67 Ali as well as FOTC Ali. For me, the fundamentals remain the same. Frazier is a bad match-up for Ali, who spoiled his boxing, didn't give him room to use his footwork, and forced him to fight at a pace he didn't want to. Firstly, his bobbing-and-weaving style made defence difficult for a man used to being able to pull back from punches - when you pull back and your opponent has just moved forward in the interim, you haven't solved the problem. Frazier was able to exploit these technical flaws with occasional big shots. Secondly, Frazier fought at a pace Ali did not have the energy to match, and Frazier pushed that pace onto Ali faster than Ali could get away. Those two main factors are largely to do with the stylistic match-up in play and very little to do with Ali's condition at the time.

 

Embarassing is probably more like it... And I actually remember him starting Frazier's peak much earlier, around 1966 with only a dozen fights or so.... At one point, I thought he was a troll, but soon realized he was being serious.

 

He looks shaky getting up, but remember he has the 8-count to recover before the ref assesses his condition and makes the call. If he'd been in the shape he was after the sixth KD after the first KD, he would have been allowed to continue.

It was the domination that forced the stoppage.

 

Princess, I don't even understand your jibberish point ... unlike yourself, I don't consider Rocky and Frazier the same fighter ... they have seperate skills in addition to the fact that one was 18 pounds heavier, much faster and proven against bigger, younger opponents ... ... where did I write about Joe blowing over the Klitschko Brothers ? I wrote W not blowout ...

If you are going to make a point, go with facts not your hysterical fabrications ...

 

Ali -- I'd favor Ali , not by much. Frazier always a danger.

Louis -- Louis, not by much. This could be either one of Louis's easiest fights against an ATG, or one of his hardest.

Johnson -- Frazier, not by much. If Johnson is strong enough inside and gets the uppercut going, could go his way.

Marciano -- Rocky, not by much.

Holmes -- Frazier, not by much.

Foreman -- Foreman; prime Frazier has a chance if the referee doesn't permit George to shove; would still favor George.

Dempsey -- 50/50 as they were at their best; edge to Dempsey if they come along at the same time.

Lewis -- Lewis (depending upon ... Lewis). Wouldn't bet a dime on this one.

Holyfield -- Frazier; Evander's chances go up if it's a 12 rounder.

Tyson -- probably Tyson; but if Joe's able to live inside, will burn out Mike. Probably, though, Mike's uppercut catches Frazier.

Liston -- edge to Liston

Bowe -- edge to Frazier

Wlad -- I'm guessing Frazier

Vitali -- I'm guessing Frazier

Patterson -- Frazier

Tunney -- Frazier, not by much.

Peter Jackson -- Frazier

Corbett -- Edge to Frazier.

Charles -- Frazier

Walcott -- Frazier

Fitzsimmons -- probably Frazier if they are as they were at their best; eslight dge to Fitzsimmons if they come along at the same time.

Langford -- 50/50 as they were at their best; slight edge to Sam if they come along at the same time.

Jeffries -- as they were at their best, 50/50 if it's a 20+ rounder, slight edge to Frazier in 15; if they came along at the same time, 50/50 in 15, edge to Jeffries in 20+.

Sullivan -- as they were at their best, Frazier; coming along at the same time, Sullivan (especially in Sullivan's day -- Frazier would have had to know both London and Queensbery, couldn't have concentrated so much on the bob (a short bobbong London fighter would be open to being chancery'd; I'm not saying Frazier couldn't have bobbed in Queensbery, but he wouldn't have been as adept at it)).

Wills -- hard to say, but I think probably Frazier, unless Wills is extremely strong inside (possible).

 

That's because most who post do so with little accountability to the facts ..

Ali's performance in Superfight 1 may have been his best ever considering he was still horribly unprepared to fight a prime Frazier ... Ali proved to have an exceptional heart and to be unbelievably tough ... that being said he was rusty but not shot. He did not take much punishment in his pre-exile career and was still physically a young man.

Frazier was a much older man from a physical standpoint when he lost to Foreman. Frazier took far more punches. Frazier was blind in one eye. Frazier had a damaged arm. YOu really cannot compare the two fighters physically....that being said, Frazier did not beat a prime Ali by any shot ...

 

I'm not sure - even from a boxing point of view, if a fighter is almost certainly going to be dominated, with basically no chance of winning the fight and a great chance of being seriously injured, I think can be justifiably stopped regardless of his actual condition. Though by that reasoning Douglas/Tyson may never have even taken place...