Joe Frazier H2H???

The foot-work and punch-output are HUGE reversals.

I went even get into the relax/sharpness aspect of things. Ali even against Bonavena was more flat-footed not moving the same. The Ali of pre-exile as Chuvalo describes is like a gazelle. His stamina is arguably as at an ATG HW level which nullifies Frazier's

You give credit for Frazier closing the gap but not even credit for pre-exile foot-speed. His going to have more space and his going to fire away while moving. Pre-exile Ali had much noticeably better stamina. Ali gave so many rounds probably by just laying on the ropes. To think increased mobility and output won't help him steal rounds or give himself at a safer distance to win more rounds is crazy, especially considering how the first fight wasn't a whitewash.

 

Yeah it was 1966-1970 wasn't it. Then ask him if he was prime when Bonavena dropped him. "Wait, what, no" plot-hole?

 

That's a horrible comparison to Frazier-Foreman. Calzaghe *****-slapped Manfredo for like 10 seconds while Manfredo shelled up. He should've gotten more time or at least a standing 8 count (If the rules allowed). Not a stopped fight.

 

Holyfield seems to be the most short-changed in H2H fights.

 

Possibly.

 

I told round15 a story that I heard from a guy that I met at a family party once.

Apparently, this guy was in New York back in the late 60's, and was invited to hangout with Oscar Bonavena's team the night before the very first Frazier fight... Joe was only a prospect with maybe 12 bouts, and oscar was a fringe contender with about 20 fights. Anyway, this dude that I talked to was hanging out with Oscar and his buddies until the wee hours of the night.. According to him, there was lot's of bar hopping, drinking, and other stuff going on.. At about 3 oclock in the morning, this guy could still here multiple women making noise in Oscar's room, and I guess he brought a bag of coke with him to make the evening even more pleasurable.... The next night, fight night came, and despite his experiences the previous evening, Oscar floored Joe Twice enroute to a majority decision loss....

When I told round15 this, he couldn't believe that a guy who partied his ass off all night, and showed up for the fight feeling like two-day old dog ****, could possibly do this to the invincible Frazier.. He then changed his position to " Joe was still green then. " " He wouldn't peak for a few more years, " even though the year was still 1966, the time that he claimed Joe was prime.

 

You need to follow the context of our discussion more closely, and you'd see where it came from....

 

Ah right.

Was his foot-speed significantly better? Where is this on film?

Noticeably much better? When did he show this stamina?

Like against Chuvalo then.

"Keep himself at a safer distance". Ali wasn't fighting off the back foot consistently like a Holmes or a Monzon. He was moving back, stopping, firing, moving back again, stopping, firing, tying up etc. Footwork is less relevant.

Anyway, you need to show me how big this difference is.

 

Very well, but frankly I don't weigh it very heavily, only that it might raise some questions, but I don't sum up his whole career on the basis of it...

The way it pertains to my conversation with Pete, is that an old poster once debated hammer and tong with me over the fact that he felt Joe's prime extended from 1966-1969.. His clearly veiled implication, was to make us believe that Frazier wasn't even prime for FOTC, which is utterly ridiculous... When called on Frazier's 1966 struggle with Bonavena, and the story that I provided about Oscar's evening the night before, he didn't know what to say.....

Thanks for making me explain that Philly.. Now, I'm going to be late leaving the office on a Friday!!!!!!:twisted:

 

Phillyphan nice list,

Only one I strongly disagree with two of your choices. First off..no way would vitali klitschko ever beat Joe Frazier. 2ndly, I like Louis by early knockout over joe frazier. Louis is the greatest of all time.