Joe Frazier: I would've beat Marciano and Tyson no problem

Exactly

Which is why i dont rate him among the Great Heavyweights

hes overrated

 

Frazier is right on both counts.

 

Marciano has never beaten an elite heavyweight in his prime.

 

Everyone's entitled to their opinion in this fantasy matchup, but i respectfully disagree. Tyson was stronger, faster, more powerful, and had a better all around game at his peak then joe frazier IMO. I'm talking peak for peak. If prime frazier fought post-prison tyson (and maybe even just before prison), i'd favor prime frazier because frazier had tremendous heart and tenacity and the skill department would be about even. But even then, tyson would have a good chance b/c of his power IMO.

 

No he wouldn't. Not at least that first part.

 

Tyson used to watch Marciano's fights! Tyson or Marciano would have knocked Frazier out.

 

He beats Marciano, maybe brutally, loses to Tyson the same way.

Frazier is a lot like Holmes, he's pretty well convinced he's the greatest of all times.

 

Way to nitpick Marcianos opposition eh?

How bout I do the same to Floyd


He was dropped by C level fighters like Brian London, Tom Mcneeley, jacques Royer Crecy. Lighting hitting Roy Harris put him down. Amatuer Pete Radamcher put him down. Limited Ingemar Johansson destroyed floyd in 3 rounds knocking him down 7 times.

Just imagine when Marciano hits him, what will happen to floyd.


I am surprised you think floyd can beat a PRIME marciano. Floyd does not have the chin to brawl with Marciano. he would get killed in a sluggout, and early too.


You say Rocky's power is overrated? Than do you mind explaining why marciano knocked out every rated opponent he ever faced, is 6-0 with 5 knovkouts against hall of famers? He also had the highest knockout percentage of any champion in the twentieth century! Floyd does not compare to that.

I think very highly of Floyd, but he is tailor made for Marciano. Floyd would walk right into Marciano, which is suicide.

 

I would never have bet againts Frazier.

 

Possibly he could've beaten a prime Mike. Against Marciano, I dunno, I would never bet against the Rock. The guy would always find a way to win.

 

Tyson was far too fast and strong for Frazier, for Tyson - Joe Frazier see Tyson - Marvis Frazier.

 

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Well, I don't know if Floyd beats Marciano. I do think Marciano can be hurt.
I was just relating what their opinions of Floyd was on why they thought Floyd would be ready for him in say, 1956, maybe '57...if Marciano still wanted a fight.

Still can't find some of those other articles I was looking for.
But anyway...

I don't think of Floyd that highly as a ATG at HW. However, I do think had he stayed from 160-175, his ATG status would be amongst the best. But, in that era, since they were smaller HWs...basically MW-LH who took advantage of a weaker smaller HW era...those guys went after the lineage and Big Money. That's why D'Amato pushed Floyd there. In today's era, Floyd could make money fighting in 160,168, 175, and CW...and be known as one of the best All Time Great Fighters P4P.

Marciano: Under 200 pounds, ATG worthy. Hard to imagine to many fighters being able to beat him under 200 pounds. I think some could but not a lot.

Fight:
Floyd doesn't have to brawl with Marciano. Floyd can move in and out as well. Although Marciano said himself that he needed room to throw his punches so you don't want to get caught from a full extended punch by him even with his small reach lower his chances based on his accuracy level.

Floyd also had a Jab...something that could trouble Marciano. He also threw fast, threw in combinations (with power in both hands)...accurate puncher, and was great at countering. Marciano wasn't that accurate and can be thrown off balance. When that happens, Floyd can exploit.
So they are the advantages I would give to Floyd.

For Marciano: obvious; great endurance, tough, will to win, power in both hands and he could throw in accumulation, good chin and knew how to tuck it; and could back a fighter up...at least the fighters around his size since I think it changes if we put him with bigger fighters...notably Sonny Liston and those that followed.


Marciano's power:

Let's look at his KO's and who he fought:

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might be the closest "ATG" that was closer to his prime...although a LH, and not some 200+...that he fought. But we'll stick with leaving it based on who he will be fighting...185, Floyd Patterson.

Age of Charls: around 33? Not quite fresh I would say based on how long his career had been going on to that point. And since everybody ages different, let's see if we can tell his actual age based on wear and tear.

Weight class he started boxing in? Middle.
Weight Class he was known for? LH
Actual weight on fight-night? 185+

How many fights did he have? 94
How many losses? 10
KO losses? 2, including a brutal knockout to Walcott.

Now you can also look at how many tough battles he was in because they tend to take a lot out of you and add to the wear and tear. It's not just about the losses in this case but even in winning, you can have a tough time. Each fighter is different though on how damaging it can be.

Now for the Health issue with Charles...don't know. I'll leave that for someone else that might know more on that topic. He should have retired after Marciano II though.

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: Don't think we need to discuss this.

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: 38 years old.

Years active: 22 years
Total fights: 76
Total losses: 16
KO losses: 4

He had some tough fights as well. Tough/Strong guy though.

Under 200 pound fighter.

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: Don't think we need to discuss. However, when I went back over the tape for this fight, at the end of the first round, Marciano landed a bomb on Louis chin similar to the one he caught Rex Layne with. Although I'm not quite sure where each landed: Layne's looked like it was on the side of the head, near the temple area, while Louis may have got hit on the chin. Louis didn't go down.
Eh...he was just bad at that point. Sad.


We should also note that "Older" fighters tend to wear out faster. I think that was mentioned by Patterson's trainer as well.
Even today, say, Hopkins...his stamina declined in his 30's, specifically after 35 years of age. Now of course, everybody is different (I know), but Hopkins is incredible in this department, lived a good life, didn't have the level of wear and tear the others above did, and had access to modern nutrition, more time to heal up, etc.
Hopkins was good at ad******g to age by ad******g how much he pushes the gas. In his youth, went at it from round 1.

Looking at early footage of Archie Moore is amazing to see how much more agile and fast he was back then compared to the one that fought Marciano and Patterson. But yes, I do know he kept the LH title and had some great fights to watch after...notably with Durrelle...who actually, Moore said hit harder than Marciano. Of course, that's the opinion of a fighter and they tend to vary. A lot matters in this I guess.


Who else?

Any notable big 200+ that were Great, Good, at least "average"?

But to be fair, it wasn't exactly like Marciano was a big guy either. So those opponents, notably under 200 pounds, were fair competition.
That's why I like comparing him to fighters more his size and not with the likes of Liston, Ali, Foreman, etc.

To sum it up, although I do think Marciano has power, more on "P4P" level, which goes with his weight of 185, which doesn't technically mean he can't punch harder than someone at 200+...but I don't think he is on the level of some of the big HWs...like Liston, Foreman, Shavers, etc.
But yes, he had power.


Those guys like to throw bombs, just like Marciano...although Liston had the ability to mix it up.

Some fighters, like Joe Louis, like to throw those short shots to get in their quick to stun you, then they could load up if they wanted with a bomb to take you out. Louis preferred short, accurate, fast combination punches over the shots he would **** back and explode on his opponents. You can see the difference in power (since that is all I can work with since I'm not getting hit) in the videos. Those shots he cocked back and exploded were the ones that had people bounce around the ring spinning around.
However, with Louis, when compared to Foreman and Shavers, I think Foreman and Shavers were more brute strength power where their power would last longer than Louis. Louis relied on speed to add to that power. Once the speed was gone, so declined his power.

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Foreman's declined in % when he came back so I think his pre-retirement may have been slightly higher but I'm not positive.

Also of thought is that KO's are having the ability to get the punch to the target. So there may be some out there with a lower KO% but it doesn't mean they didn't have more power.

Actually, look at Vitali. I think his brother Wlad hits harder than Vitali but since they are different style fighters...Vitali more of a fighter that is risky, will go for the KO, throw lots of punches (even if he has to batter you to death)...while Wlad is calculating...specifically now. And with Vitali, his power by now seems to have declined a bit. It happens.

Rocky kept throwing and had the stamina to back it up. But then you have a guy like Shavers, who didn't have the best stamina, didn't there nearly as often as Rocky, but God help the man that has to take a bomb from him.

But Yes, again, you do have to have a level of power even if it comes in bunches, to KO an opponent, specifically on the higher level.

 

All of those "rated" opponents Marciano KO'ed were a string of nobodies and those KO's of HOF opposition came against guys who had already seen their best days.

Stop BS'ing....

 

MArciano Would of Blasted frazier out and So would Of tyson. Fraizer aint got more heart then marciano . that fight would of been a knock down fest. both him and rock tasting the canvas.

Tyson just to much for Joe tyson inside 8, imo