Joe Frazier: I would've beat Marciano and Tyson no problem

I think the slow starter idea comes from him being put on his arse early on against Bonavena tbh. You might be right in saying that his opponents tiring under his relentless assault may have alot to do with the perception that he came on more strongly late on in fights.

When it boils down to it all, against Tyson, I believe Frazier would be hit and hit very hard. Frazier, as good as he was, was not immune to going down against hard punchers early on in fights. I think Tyson would jump on him and overwhelm him with his superior offensive tools: handspeed, punch variety and yes, power.

 

This is what happens when people enter a conversation that has been going on for several pages. We were talking about skills and physical abilities, not the fighters resumes. I've already said that Tyson's CV paled by comparison to Fraziers. What I was referring to was their physical gifts.

Also, they both had similiar styles and similiar dimensions. The only difference was that Tyson was stronger, faster and bigger.

 

Wow...it took me a lot longer than I thought and there is a lot more than expected. Still reading over some of the stuff I found.

To start...



Meet The Next Heavyweight Champion: A lithe young Brooklyn Negro named Floyd Patterson, who was the boxing star of the 1952 Olympic Games, now threatens Rocky Marciano's crown


You can just read the first page...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1131139/index.htm


Here is the quick quote from Duva:

According to Duva, Marciano's pride in being champion kept him on top. "He used to tell me, 'Nothing makes me feel better than to walk into a restaurant and hear someone say Hi champ.'" Retiring undefeated became Marciano's claim to fame, but when Ingemar Johansson defeated Floyd Patterson for the championship in 1959, Marciano considered a comeback. "He was offered $1.2 million to fight Johansson, which is like $20 million now," said Duva, who'd been enlisted to work Marciano's corner. "Rocky would've knocked him out, too. He never wanted to fight Patterson because Patterson was quick. But Johansson stood right in front of you, which would've been perfect for Rocky." When Patterson signed for a rematch with Johansson, Marciano lost interest.


http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=3529752

 

Thanx...but Duva NEVER mentioned rocky was afraid to fight patterson back in 1956. The way duva said it, you could interpret it as Rocky thought he could beat ingemar in 1960, but felt he was too old and slow to beat patterson in 1960. Carefully choose your words next time.

 

Rocky thought about coming back but he wasn't in favor of fighting Patterson. True, with the date.


D'Amato felt Patterson could take Rocky even before he won the title. The article above should tell you some things as well...if not...still reviewing the others. There was also the period of 1956-1957 where D'Amato talked about Marciano fight. Big Money.

D'Amato pushed Patterson to get to the top of the HW division as fast as he could. There was also a battle going on with the title at the time...forget the letters...and once that was over, I think Marciano walked away.

Boxing business is a pain of the ass. I don't think Rocky wanted much to do with it either.

Note what Rocky had to say about Patterson just a year after he retired and Patterson knocked out Moore:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCUkqyfUjTU[/ame]


D'Amato had built up Floyd's body over a relatively short period of time. Of course, being young and still maturing was a big plus but he was shaping up real well.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Stronger? Debatable. And Frazier is a better inside fighter, arguably better from a distance with that long left-hook, has far greater stamina, a superior work-rate and is mentally stronger.

This is a real toss-up of a fight, I just don't agree with people flat out saying 'Tyson destroys Frazier'. I think it is down-playing on Frazier's abilities as a fighter and I don't see the styles as something that clash remarkably in Tyson's favour.

 

Its not even debatable that Tyson was stronger physically than Frazier, and if physical strength was all she wrote in boxing, someone like Butterbean would be the GOAT. :-(

 

Damato waited until rocky started to age before he made his move into the heavyweight division. I have read that Damato did not plan to throw floyd into the ring against Marciano until he saw signs of Marciano slipping.


When Rocky retired in April of 1956...Patterson was not even a top 10 heavyweight contender. He was still a no name at the time. Marciano would get in the ring with a Bear if you asked him too. I doubt he would have been afraid of a small skinny 21 year old. Patterson would have had speed and youth in his advantage had rocky fought floyd, but rocky had too much experience punching power and strength and even the 33 year old marciano would have eventually found floyds chin in a 15 rounder. I do give floyd a chance though because rocky was slipping.


prime for prime? Marciano kayos floyd early.

 

Talk of Marciano vs. Patterson.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1131336/index.htm


And that previous article I sent also talked about Patterson being ready soon to fight Marciano

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1131139/index.htm

 

Not true. Floyd was coming from MW so it wasn't exactly easy to shoot to the top. That's what his weight was when he fought in the Olympics. He was still young and growing but being pushed fast. About 4 years isn't slow in going for the title.

It wasn't exactly easy to get ratings with the corrupt organization in boxing at the time either. Fighters can be kept away. Money tends to solve that problem.


Rocky had trouble with a past prime Charles in their first fight who was similar to Patterson in some ways...started at MW...moved up over the years...known more as a LH...although Older at that point when he faced Marciano. And Marciano said himself that he was told Charles had a glass chin or something on those lines.

Marciano's power came in bunches. He had power, no question, but I don't think it was quite what some make it out to be. Great for a 185 pound fighter though.

And Patterson was quick, threw combos, had a Jab (which actually bothered Marciano if you go by some of his fights...even a Shot Louis bothered him)...and Patterson had deadly fists as well.

Walcott and Moore put Marciano down early.

The speed combined with power of Patterson would be like nothing Marciano would have ever seen.

Of course, had he fought a Prime Joe Louis, he would have gotten a taste. But I favor a Prime Joe Louis to beat Rocky...as well as Patterson.


3:18

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pazrZZbvi6w[/ame]

 

How is it not debatable? Weight does not equat to physical strength. Foreman was arguably the strongest HW of all-time, yet he is nowhere near the heaviest.

 

I wouldn't rule out Frazier beating any HW in history. Ali had the hardest fights of his life against Frazier and it was Ali that didn't want to continue and Joe Frazier did want to continue in the Thrilla in Manilla. Who knows what would of happened had they let it continue. People judge Frazier too much because of his losses to Foreman and think he'd lose to the first ko puncher out there, but I disagree. There are fights where he fights punchers stronger than he is and Frazier gets dropped or overpowered and then mounts a comeback to break those guys down or stop them. He's known for his legendary left hook, but his pressure was what won him fights. He wasn't a slickster or defensive fighter like a Byrd or a Toney, but he still had good head movement and side to side movement that helped him get inside to batter the bigger men.

 

Except Big George. Foreman licks him 10 times out of 10 in my opinion.

 

Cus D'Amato himself said that no swarming heavyweight beats Foreman. Obviously this was before Tyson came along, but the case still runs true in my opinion. George was too big, too strong, too durable and too powerful - especially given he delivered that power with low uppercuts and hooks aswell - to be beaten by the likes of Frazier, Iron Mike, Marciano or Dempsey in his prime IMO.

 

:deal Nor does weight always equate to having superior punching power. I remember reading an interview with Monte Barrett on comparing Valuev's punches with Haye's. Basically he said Haye's were alot harder, and I'm pretty sure Haye has to have some level of respect for a fighter like Carl Thompson's or Wlad to Corrie Sanders, both smaller fighters than themselves. Now how do Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Patterson, or Ali not going to have a chance? They'd have a great chance to beat any of these modern heavies no doubt about it.