Joe Frazier, In A Division With No Ali Or Foreman??

Ah ok. Yeah he could well lose a fight, absolutely dmt. He'd fight until he did but as you say he could lose one in that middle to later period.

68 would be a fair estimate actually. He was sorta almost kind of champ then, in a way LOL

 

He loses to Marvis, who is mad because his Dad did not give him his allowance. Ha Ha.

 

lol

 

Avoids Liston, (If he did fight him, he loses the first fight, but wins the rematch a few years later when Liston has aged and Frazier has more experienced) beats Quarry and Ellis (as he did) and fights Patterson as well and stops him, but instead of fighting Ali, at 27, he loses to Ken Norton because he wasn’t as up for it, then beats him in a rematch, defends against a few opponents, like the Bugners, Wepners etc, some guy called Muhammad Ali enters a telephone competition to fight the heavyweight champion of the world, wins the telephone competition, but loses the fight in the first round as he’s never boxed in his life, (this doesn’t actually happen btw).
At 29 has a fight against Ron Lyle, walks onto one and gets taken out in a shock in the 4th round, they rematch and Frazier is more aware and drags Lyle late and stops him, defends a few more years, at 31, he gets a controversial decision against Jimmy Young, but beats him in a competitive, but deserved decision in a rematch, he go’s on a few more years than he did because he didn’t have the brutal fights against Foreman or Ali, defending against the Scott Ledoux’s, beats Norton in a trilogy.
At 33, he fights and beats an inexperienced Holmes, Frazier is still elite at this point.
At 34, he fights Leon Spinks at the same time Ali fought him and absolutely brutalises him within 3 rounds.
At 35, Beats Coetzee but gets dropped, he’s slowing down by this point.
At 36, he rematches Holmes and loses decision, but gives a good account of himself, hurting Holmes in the last round, but can’t follow up to stop him, he passes on the torch.
He hangs ‘em up and goes down as the greatest, having beaten every man he faced.

 

He’d reign longer. But by 1975-76 I think that his style and body would age out and he’d be vulnerable

 

Without the FOTC, he still has the progression of arthritis and high blood pressure to contend with. While I suspect his buddy Norton always would've surprised Ali in a first time meeting with Ken's overhand right, Joe would simply duck it, Jerry Quarry made it clear Norton's power was overrated, so I've no doubt Frazier takes him.

The hallmark HW rivalry of the mid 1970's probably becomes Frazier-Lyle (who are shown by 60 Minutes to be on excellent terms prior to the FOTC). Ron was a few years older, but didn't have arthritis and was far less ring worn. His punching power and physical strength have been rated as comparable to Foreman's according to common opponents. However Jimmy Young utterly owned Lyle, and then in turn, Joe would completely ignore Jimmy's head in favor of the body.

Frazier does get dethroned, but remains credited as an ATG after regaining the title, possibly two times. The HW division does not achieve stability again until Holmes, who Joe does not last long enough to get to.

 

Shavers ain’t beating Frazier in any universe, unless it’s around 1977 or so. No way Shavers beats a Frazier even near to his peak.

 

Like Young, Bugner didn’t have the punch to beat Frazier.

 

No version of Frazier survives that Foreman.

 

He’d dethrone Liston in 1968, then probably reign until 1974-75 or more. As others have said, he might drop a match somewhere (Perhaps Lyle? Young?) around that mid-70’s timeframe but have enough left to win the rematch & then, I suspect, retire.

There’s a wildcard though - Norton. Without Ali to occupy him & give him a little money in his pocket, that puts pressure on Norton to fight Frazier. In the real timeline, they could afford to avoid each other, but without Ali & the Foreman title fight, Norton would need the recognition & money, & could possibly beat a tiring Frazier around the mid-70’s.

Maybe that’s where the two-time championship ends up coming from.

 

Frazier reigns until age sets in

 

Where would he rank among the great ones? There’s no Ali & no Foreman, which obviously does him more good than harm, despite that flagship victory being lost. I say he figures in most peoples’ top 3-5, going by career accomplishments.

 

If he beats everyone relevant in his era then I could see a strong argument for top 3, definitely would be top 5 imo